Episode 268: Snorkl

Episode 268: Snorkl

[00:00:00] Fonz: Hello everybody. And welcome to another great episode of my ed tech life. Thank you so much for joining us on this wonderful day. So hopefully today you've had an amazing, amazing day wherever in the world that you're joining us from as always. Thank you. For all of your support. We really appreciate all the likes, the shares, the follows.

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Thank you all. Thomas Hummel and Thomas Thompson. Appreciate all of your support as always. So ladies and gentlemen, we have an amazing, amazing show. , for you today, and I'm really excited because we have two founders creators of this amazing app and I or amazing platform, I should say, who I've had the honor of meeting prior to the show, and I was like, In all, like I mentioned, there are many platforms that are out there that do some great things that are doing wonderful things in this space.

But this one to me was just jaw dropping in the fact, , because of the feedback. And we're going to talk a little bit about that right now, but I want to introduce you to John and Jeff, who are the founders of Snorkel. So Jeff, how are y'all doing this evening?

[00:02:20] Jeff: We're doing great. Thanks for having us on.

This is a, this is really cool. We're, we're excited to share. Excellent.

[00:02:25] Fonz: John, how are you doing?

[00:02:27] Jon: Great.

[00:02:28] Fonz: Good to be here. Excellent. Well, I'm excited to just dive right in, into the chat, because I know that you guys have a lot to share. And like I mentioned, I was definitely in awe of what I saw in the demo.

And like I mentioned, Uh, there hasn't been a lot of things that really just kind of like, Whoa, like this is amazing. But this to me, I guess maybe because of my experience in the classroom, I can definitely see this as something that I was like, yes, this is a must have. And it's a wonderful tool. So thank you so much.

So let's go ahead and. Dive in. And as we always start the show, I definitely love to start with kind of that superhero origin story. So as we know, every superhero has a story and they've got a beginning. So I definitely want to go ahead and learn a little bit more about you. So our audience can definitely hear a little bit about your background and really make that connection with you all in the work that you're doing.

So we'll go ahead and start with Jeff. Jeff, can you give us a little introduction and what your context in education is?

[00:03:28] Jeff: Yeah, absolutely. Uh, so John and I met in 2012 in Las Vegas. We were Teach for America core members. And, uh, you know, at that time, I think there was 120 odd core members that year in Las Vegas.

And I think like 60 or 70 of us just by happenstance ended up in a couple of different apartments off the 215, if you're familiar with the area. And so basically all these first year teachers fresh out of college, um, and we all live right next door to each other. John was a couple doors down. And so we, you know, we'd leave in the morning, we'd go to, go to, you know, go to our schools, we'd teach all day, uh, work our butts off.

Uh, and then at night we would be able to come back, you know, share stories, uh, you know, improve, reflect. Uh, obviously, you know, later in the year we're in Vegas, we're young, we had fun, um, that's pretty natural. And, uh, you know, I mentioned that because that's how, you know, John and I met a lot of other really wonderful educators as well.

But, uh, we really trusted each other because we saw each other, you know, at our best, at our worst, we helped each other improve. And, um, uh, yeah, so I taught elementary school. I taught fifth grade. I loved it. Uh, used a lot of technology in the classroom. And, uh, interestingly enough, I, I wanted to put together, uh, at the time, this is an extracurricular.

Computer science is quite common these days, but for a fifth grade teacher ten years ago, I put together a, a short unit on computer science. And I realized a couple things. One, I actually really like coding myself and two, uh, there might be a really wonderful opportunity to build new tools. And I figured what better way to do that than to learn how to code and do that myself.

Um, so I ended up, I've spent most of the last decade, uh, Writing software as a software engineer to a handful of different startups. And, uh, you know, John and I obviously stayed in touch. Um, I'll let him get into his background. But a couple years ago, we started jamming on a few different ideas coming out of the pandemic for how software might improve and provide a really neat set of features for teachers.

And yeah, and we've been working on it ever since. John, I'll let you

[00:05:28] Fonz: That's wonderful. All right. Yeah, go ahead, John. I want to hear your story, too, as well.

[00:05:35] Jon: Yeah, I, uh, so I taught high school math in Las Vegas, and then I, , stayed in the math classroom. So I spent most of the last decade as a high school math teacher, uh, loved it and also loved getting my students to think about math in new and creative ways.

 The last few years, I was an instructional coach. At a high school here in Minneapolis, and then Jeff and I, like he said, started talking about some ideas to to really capture student thinking and some really rich ways and use some neat tech tools to do so. So 1 of my big focuses in my math classroom was about making math about more than just students.

Answers, but about their thinking process. And so Snorkel was really born out of some conversations Jeff and I had about, about doing just

[00:06:22] Fonz: that. That is great. And, uh, you know, interestingly, I love the story that you, the way that you all met, I am familiar with Las Vegas. Actually, I did one year of teaching at a charter school in Bullhead city, , which is an hour and a half away from Vegas.

So I'm very familiar with the area. So that's kind of interesting that that's where you guys met too, as well. And. So that's great, you know, just to hear the way that y'all made that connection and, you know, you just kind of bonded, your same interests and things of that sort. And then, of course, being in education and, doing it for several years.

So I definitely want to dive in now as to what you all have done and have created and that I've been able to see. And so. Tell us a little bit and we'll go to start with John this time. So John, tell me a little bit then, you know, where this idea came from. And I know you mentioned about, you know, making, uh, the classroom a little bit more amplifying student voice, being able to give feedback to as well.

So. You two knew each other, you met, and then now all of a sudden it's like, Hey, we've got this idea. So tell me a little bit about your side, John. How did you hear, you know, tell me how this story kind of came to fruition. And of course, with the inception of snorkel too, as well.

[00:07:37] Jon: Yeah, I think like, first off, some of the things that were true about like what I was trying to do in my own math classroom was.

I, I really wanted, I mean, my own experience in high school math is I, I was always good at math and I always thought that math class was really boring. And then ironically, I grew up and I became a high school math teacher. And, um, I think one of the, the things that sort of opened my eyes to think differently about math was some of my experiences with math in college where math just felt much more rich and creative.

And so I was trying to bring that oftentimes to my, my own. High school math classes that I was teaching. , we really want to emphasize, like, students sharing their thinking, communicating a lot with each other. I'm a big fan of the work of, of, uh, Dan Meyer, of Joe Bowler, of, . Here are little dolls building thinking classrooms.

Um, so trying to get students to really put their thinking at the center of what math class is all about. And so I think that was sort of happening and sort of the. What I was doing at the classroom at the time and then Jeff gave me a call one day where he was like, Hey, I'm thinking about some ideas.

I'm thinking about exploring what it would look like to build a different platform. And I know, I know Jeff had talked to some folks about what they were doing teaching in the pandemic. And 1 of those ideas that came up quite a bit, I think was, um, Teachers were having students record themselves solve problems because there wasn't really any other way to do it in the pandemic.

Um, and I think I heard that I thought, well, you know, student thinking is what I'm trying to, like, raise up in my class, even when we're not virtual teaching. Um, and so there's probably some really powerful ways that we could. Support that, um, with some neat tools. Um, and so that sort of led us down this pathway of ability to snorkel.

[00:09:31] Fonz: That is amazing. You know, and I'm just going to go ahead and go off on that a little bit too. Being a former math teacher myself, I started off as an algebra teacher and then I moved down to, uh, elementary where I did elementary, uh, Fifth and fourth or actually fifth and sixth grade, I should say. And I absolutely understand what you're saying as far as, you know, trying to get the, the student process, the thinking, the discourse, and being able to visually see the thought process.

And I think for me in a very similar fashion, it was something that I was always striving to do in not just learning. Like just the standard algorithm or in the standard way of doing things. But I think for me, the most important thing was obviously seeing how the student is learning and then being able to fix any misconceptions.

So it was a great feedback for me, but it was also great feedback for the student as well. So that is great. And so then Jeff, you know, now you're like, Hey, you know what? We've got something going on here. So tell me a little bit about now on your side, you know, from the feedback that you were getting. You know, now saying, Hey, let, how do we marry these two?

So, uh, tell me a little bit about that.

[00:10:44] Jeff: Yeah. So I guess like from where John left off, you know, we wanted to create this platform, uh, you know, that can report and capture so much of what our students are thinking. Um, you know, so many different ways that kids interact or express what they know. You know, you're just getting that like little piece, uh, of, of what they actually do now.

And then there's, there's far less to go off on. Um, you know, as John alluded to, I was, I was interviewing a ton of teachers. This is like late. 2021 coming off the pandemic. Most teachers are still the wounds are fresh. Uh, you know, the pandemic did a lot of teachers wrong in so many ways. It was tough. Uh, but they out of necessity, as john mentioned, people were using screencasting tools to have kids demonstrate each other thinking.

And I just remember thinking, wow, that is such a rich way, uh, to show what, you know, it's just such a more robust, uh, approach. John and I, you know, jumped on it. Um, we said, yeah, there's definitely something there. So we ended up building, uh, we experimented a lot. We, we met with, I think in our first year, uh, 2022, we didn't even, we weren't like, let's go out, let's launch this product.

Let's just listen and learn and collect feedback. And we had like a little like basic, like alpha version of the product that we tested with a handful of folks. Uh, where, you know, teachers could give kids questions, uh, they can record their response. And, uh, what we found is that, uh, they, they agreed with us.

They're like, yeah, this is a really rich, really, uh, fulfilling task. But

[00:12:07] Jon: what do you do with the videos?

[00:12:08] Jeff: You know, how do you, like, teachers just don't have time to sit there and watch and, and give feedback on all the student thinking. It's just overwhelming. It would take hours and hours of, of extra time each day.

And, uh, I'll pass it back over to John because, uh, there was just, you know, really fortuitously, uh, a few different technologies came on the map. I think we all know what they are, um, that, that allowed us to do some really, really neat things and kind of take this really interesting approach to showing your thinking with the actual capability for like, you know, just your everyday teacher to get something really powerful out of it.

Which is really, really

[00:12:42] Fonz: cool. Excellent. So yeah, so John, I mean, uh, tell me more a little bit about what, uh, Jeff is, uh, talking about and just expand on that because I'm getting really excited to hopefully just be able to demo this, but I definitely want to talk about just like you've mentioned a little bit, Jeff, that teacher piece, because I know that the video portion was something that was very useful, but you're absolutely right also, and it does take time to go back and review those videos and so on.

So now, John, tell me a little bit more about how, you know, now we're seeing how Snorkel is coming, kind of coming to fruition here and, and moving along with the new technology. So tell us what that next step was.

[00:13:23] Jon: Yeah, I think, I think there came a time over the last, last spring where we, we just realized that like, we have that really rich artifacts of student thinking.

And wouldn't it be amazing if there was a way to capture it, analyze it, give feedback on it, and, and allow teachers to have insights on it, like, instantaneously? And like, you know, I, I think we never set out to build an AI tool, um, but once we've realized what we could do with AI and, and the rich artifacts we were capturing from students, it just felt Like a really automatic, natural fit, um, and so there was a, uh, uh, we got really excited about all at once and it also really rapidly sort of shifted gears into, okay, now we're, we're incorporating this element and we're not really sure where that's going to take us.

But once we started looking at what it did on student with the student work that we were running through the, the scripts we had created and the tools we had built, um, it was just like instantly we were really excited. We were like, oh, we got to show everyone what we're doing here. Um, and so yeah, so that's sort of the direction and trajectory that we took off on in the beginning of this school year and has just kept growing and growing, um, to create what Snorkel is now.

And so I guess that sort of like leads us up to Maybe it should, I jump into like a quick demo here.

[00:14:54] Fonz: Absolutely. Yeah, we would love to. So go ahead and, uh, if you click there, I'll present and be able to share your screen, that would be great because the world definitely needs to see this. Because one of the things that you mentioned that I am a big proponent of is that you mentioned having those learning artifacts and being in the classroom, you know, about last time I was in the classroom was eight years ago, but still then even the years prior, being able to, um.

work with just a Google workspace. And of course, different artifacts. We had screencastify at the time, uh, you know, a lot of other products and allowing students to really share their learning in a different modality. But obviously students were turning it into me and still, I still had to. Go back and grade.

And like you mentioned, you know, still having to look through those videos. You, it does take some time, but of course I was able to hear the students speaking, fix any misconceptions. So that was the big bonus, but I loved what you demoed for me. And hopefully right now we can get that going. That'd be great.

So we can get everybody to check that

[00:16:01] Jon: out. Great. So I'll share, I'll share my screen here and I'll just give a little preface to this, which is to say, I think one of the things that what makes us who we are and that we really value is inviting students to explain and share their thinking. That's, you're going to see that it's really prominent in what the snorkel platform does is we think when students share their thinking, it allows us to celebrate their thinking in deeper ways than just the answer.

Like I was alluding to before, it allows us to give really meaningful feedback on that process. It gives us, as teachers, really deep insights into how students are approaching and solving problems, and not just for math. We started thinking specifically about math, but what we found is, like, obviously it's really valuable to have students to share their thinking.

In any subject in content area. And so we started with this idea in math class, and now I've got teachers using this in science and social studies and, uh, world languages and just across the board. Um, so that's been a really exciting sort of natural evolution of where this has gone. But so this is a snorkel assignment as a student would see it.

They open up a link that their teacher shares with them. They sign into their snorkel account and it brings them to this digital whiteboard where they've got a. question or a prompt from their teacher. This happens to be a fourth grade math example. Um, but on, on this digital whiteboard here, students have different tools to draw, highlight, type out text and create a response to the question that's here on the screen.

And so they can show their work in some interesting ways. And then really the heart of a snorkel assignment. Is that they, they make a recording and share their thinking, and so we think it's a deeply engaging way to invite students into, into the learning process. And so when they are ready, they press this purple record button and I'll demo this here live.

Um, so I'll press this purple record button. I'll give a short explanation of how I solve this problem just so that you can see here what that feedback process looks like for students. It's pretty quick, um, but I'll record. So I got a rectangle here with a perimeter of 146 centimeters. It says that the length is 29 centimeters.

I'm going to label one side 29 centimeters and the opposite side 29 centimeters. If the total perimeter is 146, I'm going to take away those two lengths. I'm going to do 146 minus 29 plus 29 is 58. So I'm going to do 146 minus 58, and that gives me 88. And if I have that 88 left for the two widths, I'm going to split that into 88 divided by two is 44.

And so that width of the rectangle must be 44. So students record, again, really rich opportunity for them to share their thinking, solidify their understanding, or catch their own mistakes. And then they press that submit button, and when they do, our AI automatically starts analyzing their response. And it's going to provide them with really personalized timestamped feedback on their explanation.

Um, so again, not only giving students, uh, obviously really awesome personalized feedback, but giving teachers a really powerful tool here for, Getting that feedback to all their students instantaneously, um, and automatically scoring that student work.

[00:19:42] Fonz: That is amazing. So just to kind of go through this again, you know, I, I love what you did in the sense that this is very similar to what we saw during pandemic as far as using the videos.

So it still keeps that nice video aspect of it. Students are recording, they're recording their ideas. You as a teacher now are observing. You know, their steps, the thought process, how they're learning and explaining it. And that all these, that's one thing that I always loved about, uh, you know, being in the classroom is that oftentimes, sometimes as teachers, we would explain things one way, but then all of a sudden the student did things in their own way, which I found very useful too, because then I was able to learn from them.

And then I was able to kind of use those strategies too, as well to help facilitate, you know, the learning. But what I love here is that we're seeing this amazing output by snorkel. And like you mentioned in a time during following those timestamps and giving that feedback. And I mean, I'm seeing some great feedback here that, you know, says there's a great job on labeling the length of the rectangle, you know, helping to visualize the problem.

So this to me, doesn't. Look like anything that is out there right now, which to me really excites me because this is something that I get. I find very, very useful because you're getting that feedback in a timely manner, but just the fact that it's also very encouraging. Like we see your timestamp number two.

Hey, you did a great job at explaining why you subtracted the length. Of the perimeter and it's keeping, you know, a very nice answers that are still using, you know, math vocabulary. And I know we'll talk a little bit about that too, how the teachers can kind of set up the rubric as well. But to me, this is wonderful and phenomenal to be able to have, I guess I would say like a co teacher or an assistant, or I don't know how many people may say this is my co pilot, whatever it is.

You know, the teacher here has a great way to give that feedback through your platform and still be able to see the student work. So I find this just jaw dropping right now. You know, this is amazing.

[00:21:51] Jon: Yeah. Yeah. We try to take a really acid based approach to student thinking. So, I mean, obviously I solved this question correctly, but if I solve it incorrectly, it's going to.

Find specific things that it can praise still in my work, as well as prompt me with really specific questions to help me get unstuck or to retry what you see. There's a respond again button up here in the corner. Students can really quickly and easily utilize that feedback. Um, I think this is one of the things that makes snorkel unique is most other platforms, especially in math, but a lot of a lot of different tech platforms soon gets the wrong answer.

And what do they get? They get immediately a red X. They're told they got incorrect and they're shown videos of someone else doing it right. And I think that's, that's not our approach at Snorkel. It's really to praise and validate what goes well in student thinking and then give them the specific.

Support that they need to, to either rethink or try again, um, in the way that a high quality teacher would with, um, in the classroom.

[00:22:53] Fonz: Yeah, you know, one thing that I love that you mentioned is you're absolutely right. As far as many of the platforms that are out there, including some of the ones that I see within my district, where it's, it's the practices there, but then it's the red X and it's almost just very punitive and very discouraging.

For the student, because like you mentioned immediately, once they get that question wrong, there's a tutorial video, because we do have a platform that does that a tutorial video that shows a person solving the problem. But again, at the same time, it may not be, you know, sometimes what I've noticed is with a lot of those platforms, they don't teach it in the manner that we may be teaching it within our district, or maybe something that's a little bit more standards aligned.

However, what I love about this here is the fact That it doesn't feel punitive and you don't see that large red X. And one thing that you mentioned is that it will show the students some praise for the good stuff that they did and say, Hey, you know, although you only got maybe three out of four points here, you did great here on this.

You did great here in this. But now let's just improve on this section. And again, also to the fact that they're able to respond again, like you shared there in the video, I think in the, in the demo, I think it's something that's very important because many students do feel very discouraged and especially with math, I think, uh, you know, one of the things that I found is it's.

Many teachers teach the way that they learned it and they don't offer, you know, just a variety of ways of teaching it with manipulatives or just a little bit more visuals. And this, what I love is that to me, it serves a purpose like a virtual manipulative because you're writing, you're recording, you're still doing the math and as we, as we've seen here in Texas and many other places, this is where.

Testing is going into that online, um, you know, mode. And before you know it, the students are going to have to construct, you know, maybe using digital manipulators, but there is going to probably come a point in time now where they're going to have to record themselves too, as well, showing that they have mastered that content.

So I think that you are very well ahead of the curve here and I'm really excited. Not only for the math part, but because you said you all, you know, you have. Science and you're working on building up more libraries. So that's something that's very exciting. So I want to ask, you know, um, what has been, you know, from the schools that you've been able to work with and being able to pilot this and I'll go with John here.

What has been that initial response from the teachers? And maybe if you've been able to get some feedback from students as well, Yeah. What is it that you're hearing? Is you hearing that excitement? Are you, are the students feeling a little bit more confident? Is it building up their confidence? What are y'all seeing?

[00:25:51] Jon: Yeah, definitely. I think one of the, one of the first pieces of feedback we noticed that we get a lot is actually teachers are surprised and impressed by how often their students are actually really using. That feedback and immediately submitting another response, and I think that, um, even when even when students aren't asked to, we get feedback all the time.

It's like, I can't believe that my students are willing to try this, like, 3 times in a row. Um, and I think part of it has to do with the both the immediacy of the feedback and the extremely personal nature of it. Um, uh, I think just like double click on on the idea that I think you just alluded to around, like.

There's something ironic about so much of the math conversation these days is around getting students to, to discuss and talk and share and be creative. And so much of the math ed tech is very, very much the opposite. It's very, very, you know, fill in the box. Watch someone else do it. Um, and so we're, we're not that, but, um, back to your other question.

Back to your question. I think it's, um, yeah, a lot of excitement and enthusiasm around the immediacy of that feedback and what that provides for students, um, teachers who've told us that they've heard more of their student thinking this year than they have ever in the past, which is really, really exciting.

Um, and, and, I think that as certainly is important in any math classroom or any classroom. I shouldn't just say math, but, um, especially in the context of a school. That's got a really large English language learner population. We're developing English language. Proficiency is a top priority, which snorkel is just like an awesome tool to give students.

That practice. So if they're they're developing, they can continue practicing in English. If they are new to country, they can record and snorkel in any language. So someone who's new to country can actually record in their native language. They can get feedback in their native language. And suddenly you're getting at giving access to student thinking.

Um, that would probably otherwise be missed. Um, and so we've had a lot of enthusiasm around supporting English language learners as well. Um, and then just being able to capture and see that student work. I

[00:28:02] Fonz: love that. And Jeff, what is it that you're seeing? I'm pretty sure you're, it's the same thing that John is saying, but I want to hear from you.

What are, what are some of the things that are, that are exciting to you from what the, what you're seeing, you know, teachers tell you about and what students are doing?

[00:28:19] Jeff: Well, first off, I should share that, uh, you know, being the person that's writing all the code, I have to unfortunately sacrifice a lot of the direct interaction, which as a former teacher is a bummer.

But I know that, uh, I do get a chance to interact with teachers and students quite a bit. And, uh, I mean, honestly, it actually, it really hits home for me in that, like, when I was younger, I sometimes struggled to convey. My thinking and traditional means in writing and showing my work visually, but I was always much stronger just being able to communicate and share my thinking that way.

And I think a lot of kids, you know, if you look at how they're usually using technology, they're almost always silent. They're sitting there. They're. You know, tapping on the keyboard. And so I think for a lot of kids, there is this, uh, you know, this is a much easier way for them to bring so much more of this modality to play.

There's so much power in their voice. And, um, you know, you look back and as long as humans have been around, we've learned to speak before we learned to write. And unfortunately, that's just not always honored in school. And for good reason. I mean, you know, it's really challenging. And you have 35 kids, 35 5th graders like I did.

Uh, when I was teaching to let them all, you know, to listen to all of them, uh, recognize what they're saying, give them that feedback or facilitate that peer to peer interaction. It's incredibly challenging. And so, yeah, I think that that's, you know, there's really 2 things, uh, that every teacher will come to us and say, wow, we love that they're able to do this really interesting, rich, rigorous activity.

And they get quick, immediate feedback. Yeah,

[00:29:49] Fonz: I absolutely love that. And I think, you know, like you mentioned, although maybe you don't have that much interaction because you said, like, you're there and you're programming and you're writing the code and everything. But I definitely, I just want to say thank you on behalf of, you know, all the teachers and even myself and all, you know.

All the great teachers that you're going to be helping because this is something that is amazing and the way that you've written this in such a way where just looking at that feedback for that problem you know was a feedback that was it honestly like when reading it just it didn't sound very robotic or anything it actually it it sounded great and it was it's way better feedback than what many students would get through um just other platforms that are out there like we mentioned seeing somebody else do it.

But the fact that this also encourages the students to continue to improve because it's, it's, it's a great way that they visually see like, Hey, I got only three out of four points, but guess what? I can try this again and I can make it better. Then you're hitting on so many modalities like John was talking about, because now if you're, let's say an, uh, emergent bilingual student coming into the country.

Now you have the option of still making the math accessible to them in their native language while they acquire, you know, the, the academic vocabulary, they're working on language skills and acquiring the English, um, you know, that proficiency they're working on the math. And so the one thing that I love is that it's almost like.

There's no barrier to entry for anybody to be able to try this. And to me, that is the most valuable thing when there is a platform, uh, such as yours that can allow any student to come in. And be able to work and not feel left out. It was very difficult for me when I was in the classroom, when I would have students that would come in from Japan and Korea, and then I would have students that would come in from, uh, Israel.

And so I had to have an iPad and sit them there next to me and use the translate feature. But the, the look on the students faces just, they saw me trying. I mean, I was trying what I could within the means that I had at the time. Uh, but now to be able to have something like this, and if I were to go back into the classroom, this would definitely be a lifesaver in that sense, but most importantly, that the students would not feel frustrated or singled out.

And I really appreciate that. You guys really thought this through. And that to me, like I said, blows me away because while a lot of the tools that are out there, It's Do automate certain things and help teachers create certain things a little bit quicker and so on. This is the one platform that I've seen that is very student centered, student friendly, and also it's a great help to the teachers as well, because you have evidence, you have a video, and for me, those artifacts too, I tell teachers, whenever you can get an artifact, Should you need to go to, you know, the meetings that we have with the, the, the alphabet soup meetings, the IEPs, the 504s, the ARDs and so on and so forth, you can show growth and say, Hey, look, this is where this student was at the beginning of the year.

But look at where this student is now. And oftentimes. We focus too much on the end product and not on the process. And here you're able to see that learning process and that growth from beginning of the year to the end. And that to me is exciting that, you know, there really isn't any platform that I can even.

Come close to comparing you to that is out there because you guys are on the league of your own and again something and this is being very sincere because I See this in my position and I'm in my current role the countless platforms that are out there But this one is is different and this one is is definitely good and worth the investment I mean, you know, like I mentioned I thought the return on instruction is Like, wonderful.

It's out there. So, I love it. So, thank you so much for doing that. Now, I want to ask you, now, obviously, we know that artificial intelligence, and this has been a hot topic, and we see a lot of platforms out there, and so on, and I know, like, I wanted to talk to you, and there is a question here that I, Must ask because I am a big proponent.

I consider myself a cautious advocate. Uh, and of course I, I'm always looking out also for, you know, for my student population, teacher population and so on. So if you can just tell us a little bit as far as the data side of it and the privacy side, what is it that you all at Snorkel are doing to help, you know, at least put our teachers.

District parents, students at ease as far as, you know, the data privacy aspect of it.

[00:34:53] Jeff: Yeah, that's a great question. I could take a, I could jump on this. Um, so first off from like, uh, you know, from a policy and, you know, just how we handle the data and how it's treated legally, it was really important that we really dived into what are the relevant laws, what policies and procedures need to be in place.

Um, and we make sure that we have that, uh, you know, that we're meeting all of the needs these basically every state is going to have a little bit different in each state, but we want to make sure that we meet all of the legal frameworks that are out there. Um, we have, uh, our, our, all of our documents and policies have been certified by a nonprofit called one on tech.

We are also going through and should finish the certification process from I keep safe for for Bacopa, California's privacy laws, given their strictness. If you could, if you can get approved there, then you're good pretty much everywhere from what I'm told. Um, and, uh, we just want to make sure that that is all in place and that people feel very comfortable that, you know, they're giving their data to us, that we're going to treat it right.

Uh, then from, obviously, as an engineer, from my background, you know, I spent most of the last decade working in education, working in healthcare, where, you know, you have to make sure that you have the best, best practices in place, that no stone is left unturned, you know, in terms of how you've built the platform.

And that was a consideration from day one. Uh, you know, and I, the first line of code that I wrote. I, you know, considered the NIST framework and I considered. The different pieces that would need to be incorporated from from that standpoint, um, and, uh, but actually, as for the, uh, the artificial intelligence piece, obviously, that came in a little bit later in terms of the development, um, we do a few things that I think are really important.

1, just a relationship. We do use, uh, open AI for some of the core models. Um, there's an agreement that we have in place. They're not going to save or use this data for any training purposes. Uh, you know, they don't. Okay. They don't do anything nefarious with it. We won't. That's actually obviously incredibly important, but just as another step in precaution, we have a handful of algorithms and, uh.

You know, backend engineering processes in place that will essentially strip out the personally identifiable information before we send it there. So, for some reason, something did happen, which, once again, the contracts that we have in place say that they won't, and we trust them, and there's a lot riding on it for them to get this right, too, which is also critically important.

Um, we reduce the likelihood that anything, uh, you know, that that anything negative will happen with that data. Um, and then. Yeah, John, that feels like it covers, uh, the big, the, the policy and engineering things. Is there anything from a teacher standpoint that you wanted to add or?

[00:37:30] Fonz: Yeah, and actually yeah, I think Jeff you answered that very well and for John on John's side Actually, I want to ask him, you know to as far as the curriculum aspect side of it too as well now I know I did see you know in the demo that you did share with me that there is you know for Texas TEEX out there and everything.

So I want to ask you as far as Developing, you know for because again, you know, every state is different and there's so many things that you have to go through So I want to ask you like how do you You know, on the curriculum side, uh, or that aspect to, uh, be able to create those lessons and making sure that they are standards aligned, depending on the state or whether the region or on the standards that, you know, the districts may be using nationwide.

[00:38:16] Jon: Yeah, great question. There's a whole other side here, which we haven't really explored yet, but which is like the teacher side and on the teacher side. Like, we don't just see this as a, this is not just like a black box where students are talking to AI and they're getting feedback from AI. On the teacher's side, they're seeing all this collection of rich student work.

Um, yeah, let me show it real quick.

[00:38:39] Fonz: Yeah, and this was really cool. So I'm glad that you get to show that, share this with our

[00:38:43] Jon: audience. And then, and then I'll circle back to the curriculum question, because I think that's, that's an important one too, but as a teacher, I can see all these really rich artifacts from across my class all at once, the AI is automatically sorted them into the buckets of correct or incorrect as students are submitting their work.

I can see that little label there in the corner for how strong that student response is. And if I take my cursor here, I can just quickly scroll over that video to preview. My students response and their explanation there and how they are, uh, the automatic closed caption there at the bottom showing their explanation.

Obviously, as a teacher, you can jump into any of these student videos, um, and flip through them quickly. You can add additional feedback and in the form of both written comments, but also in the form of video comments on top of student work, which we think is really powerful. Um, and then as teachers, obviously time is critical.

Uh, right. And so we leverage a I to actually give teachers insights into how all their students are doing across the whole class. I know. Oftentimes, as a teacher, at the end of the day, I'd be sitting there with a pile of my exit tickets, and it would take me. 30 40 minutes to sort through and organize and figure out what the trends were.

And what I need to do next. Um, here we're using AI to do that pretty much instantaneously. And so after students submit their work that they can look at this AI analysis page, which will tell them those top exemplars from across the class that they might pull from. To share with students, I will tell them the trending misconceptions from across the class and who's making those misconceptions so that they can specifically pull those students into small groups and support them with additional help.

Um, and so again, leveraging this, not just as a. It's student tool for feedback, but a really strong teaching resource and instructional resource. Um, and then, and then you asked a question about curriculum. So teachers can both create their own problems upload something to Canvas. It's super simple and easy to do and share that with their students.

We also have a collection of pre created Snorkel activities. And our approach there is, and actually I think we're, maybe the odd ones out here are sort of unique. I say, I think a lot of. Uh, AI tools right now are are trying to do a I created curriculum materials and we we are not like we are. We have veteran teachers who are have a lot of experience in the classroom who are creating high quality content and for us to use on the snorkel platform so that teachers can go in there quickly grab an assignment and send to their students and then leverage that power of the AI for that feedback, but we're not using AI generated curriculum materials right now.

But we're. We're trying to look closely at state standards and common core standards and And create rigorous materials that we know students are going to see on state exams and things like that to help guide, um, how to just get started in the platform.

[00:41:46] Fonz: Oh, and that is one thing, like I said, that I definitely praise you highly for because when I got to see.

What you had made available as far as teaks are concerned. And then when I got to do and work on that problem, while you were walking me through the platform, I was like, this is a problem that is definitely not AI generated because I have tried, I've tested everything that is out there. And then you put in like, well, here's the standard.

I'm going to put four, four H in here for Texas and math. And then all of a sudden you get these problems that are, you're like. What? Like they just don't make any sense. And here, what I saw was something that looks very similar to what a student would see in a state test and that to me, like I mentioned, I think does not.

I mean, you said like, you know. Uh, I don't know what the word or the phrase was, but really it does set you apart in an excellent way and having those veteran teachers really create that, that line up with those standards is definitely a big plus. And I definitely appreciate that. And that's why I was like, I was blown away because you are definitely seeing things from that educator perspective and you're really.

Teacher centered, but also in the student centered approach to as well. And you're, you're hitting on both of the modalities on the teacher side and on the student side. And that is really exciting, you know, because like I mentioned, that immediate feedback that you just shared right now, being able to scroll through, it doesn't feel like, oh, my gosh, I have to sit here and watch, you know, 30 videos and they're all two minutes each, three minutes each.

But the way that the AI helps you as that assistant to filter out the great ones, the, eh, you know, in the middle of the pack. And then of course we see the ones that need improvement on, but I also loved what you said that you can pull. Some of those wonderful exemplars from and then share with students and now you've got students teaching other students in an indirect way, you know, through those exemplars and it just kind of brings everything full circle for me that.

So that's why it was really exciting to see that because if I was in the classroom and if I had to be in the classroom again, this would be My go to, like, this is going to be that one tool that is going to help me out and really get that feedback to be able to give that just in time support and fix any misconceptions on the fly.

So, which is something that a lot of the other platforms that are out there don't do right away or with this immediacy. And, um, that's the great part that here you get to hear. The student thought process, see the student work, and then as a teacher, we can say, okay, maybe this one was on me. I need to just reteach misconception.

Or if it's a small group, maybe it's just that two, three minute kind of clarification. And now I don't have to be overwhelmed with a large tutoring group, whether it's before school, after school, or even a Saturday tutoring. So this has been great. So thank you. Thank you both Jeff and John. For what it is that you're doing through snorkel.

I'm really excited. So I want to ask, and I'll, I'll start with, uh, Jeff first this time. You know, what, what do we see or where do you see snorkel, you know, with the success that you've had right now through your piloting program, but what is next as far as, you know, uh, snorkel is concerned, what else do you, are you, do you guys have on the pipeline that you might be able to share?

Yeah, absolutely.

[00:45:16] Jeff: Well, uh, first off, like just to respond to a few things that you said about, you know, product development and seeing it like John and I are both teachers. And one of the cool things about that is that, you know, as we think about new features and ideas, like we can just close our eyes, imagine the classroom and be like, yeah, this is going to be cool.

Like other teachers, they're going to be excited about this. And, uh, that's an incredibly important, you know, feeling and intuition. And we, we definitely, we listened to that and we held it. We obviously speak with a ton of teachers as we build new things to check our thinking and to get other ideas from them.

Um, Everything in this app has come from a real teacher or student, uh, and a ton of them. Uh, so I guess, like, I'll just go, like, short term and long term. Um, in the short term, uh, the next kind of big feature we're thinking about is, you know, how can we, uh, help professional learning communities? How can we help school leaders?

See, uh, you know, from a, you know, all the standards that they're working against that they're responsible for helping their schools meet and all the students that they're helping, where are they, you know, color coded by student and standard, um, where they're progressing and then just having all of those, you know, it's almost like having competency based grading, like, automatically added and the artifacts right in there.

And, um, and then you have an opportunity to then work with, you know, if you're a coach, work with the teachers that you're working with, where you can look at, you know, how students are doing, you can lead reflections and PLC meetings. And do a lot of really, really neat things, um, uh, in the long term, though, uh, you know, you said it, I think, I think we are a little bit ahead of the curve in terms of of where, uh, the way that we collect and gather and analyze student data is going, um, you know, I don't think like overnight, like, every single teacher in the country is like, yeah, we're going to use snorkel and we're going to use this type of modality.

I think that there are a million reasons why that's not going to be like an overnight thing, but I think the trending direction is there. Um, and I think the reason is really simple kids have so much brilliance, uh, up in their brain and they do not get a chance to share it every day. And, uh, I think that we can just go a long way as educators.

If we were able to unlock that and share that and build on that. And, um, you know, you mentioned that some of the state star tests are starting to include these types of problems. Uh, you know, obviously testing is a small piece of the education framework. It's obviously very important at the state level, but, um, you know, I see that becoming really prominent there as well, but I think it's more of the like day to day, you know, we need to get past, uh, you know, ABCD multiple choice fill in the blank types of tests and exams.

And the hope is that by creating these new ways for kids to share their thinking, that we can get to a place. Uh, as an education system where we really can build a more learner centered, uh, learner respected system. And I, I think that our tool is not the only piece of that. There's a lot of other really neat tools that are being developed right now.

But I do think it can play a really big role and, and we're really excited about that. So.

[00:48:05] Fonz: Absolutely. I'm definitely excited about that. All right. And the last question, uh, will be for you, John. And, uh, why snorkel? Where did that name come from? Yeah,

[00:48:16] Jon: I get this question a lot. People have a lot of curiosity about our name.

Um, I, I think what the, the metaphor that we use is like a snorkel is a, is a simple tool that allows you to explore new things and see things differently. Um, and so that's what we aim to be is, is, uh, That in the education world, um, Jeff also grew up in San Diego. So he likes, he grew up snorkeling and it's a fun word too.

So there's, there's just a multitude of good reasons to have snorkel as their name.

[00:48:47] Fonz: Well, I'll be honest with you. And this is me just thinking, and I was thinking right now, I was like, okay, maybe I didn't know that that's what it was. Just snorkel. I was thinking to myself, it's like. This is kind of clever in a way, because sometimes teachers feel like they can't breathe in their underwater, but this is that one tool that can help them breathe when they feel like they're just drowning, you know?

So that was my thought, you know, but again, I'm glad that it was a little different, but you know, like I said, this definitely, like I said, for me is definitely a breath of fresh air and it can definitely help me just tread water and tread water lightly and just feel that I know. That I'm getting the best out of my students and encouraging them.

And like you said, even themselves, you know, being self motivated to give me a better answer because of the way that they're getting that feedback. And so for me, this is definitely it. This would definitely be my snorkel in helping me in the classroom for sure. Well, gentlemen, thank you so much. I really appreciate your time.

This evening, you know, thank you so much for all of your shares. Thank you for what it is that you're doing. Thank you so much for the demo. And I absolutely wish you the best in what it is that you're doing and that you continue to grow. And hopefully the, you know, just being part of this show too, and being able to.

To put this out there too, with my audience can definitely help you all continue to grow, or at least connect with more educators to be able to do some wonderful things. So thank you so much for letting me be a little part of, you know, the, this, this kind of the snorkel fam in that sense, to be able to share out, you know, the amazing work that you're doing, because that's what this show is all about.

Amplifying educator voices, creator voices, and founder voices. So thank you. But before we go. We always love to end the show with the last three questions. So hopefully you guys are ready. And so we'll go ahead and start with Jeff on this one. And we know that every superhero has a weakness or a pain point.

So for example, for Superman, uh, kryptonite was his weakness. So Jeff, I want to ask you in the current state of education, what would you say would be your current. EduKryptonite. My

[00:51:05] Jeff: current EduKryptonite. That's a phenomenal question. I'm not even sure if I know how to respond to that. So, I'm the superhero in this story.

The question is

[00:51:16] Fonz: What is your EduKryptonite? What is your pain point right now in education? What, what just makes you weak either when you hear it? Is something through EduSpeak? Is it a practice? Is it a thought? Something? What, what would you say right now is, is your EduKryptonite? It's a great

[00:51:34] Jeff: question.

Yeah. I mean, so when I wake up in the morning and I start coding, I, uh, there's a lot of things that fire me up and get me excited. And by get excited, I mean, like, we need to do something about that. I think there's two things. One is from the student perspective and one's from the teacher. So, like, as a, as a student, you know, when I was teaching, I was just always, I saw a lot of kids.

Uh, you know, once again, just typing on the keyboard, silent, passive, you know, it's got to stop, but we have to have to create a way that gives kids kids opportunities to actually share what they're doing and being more active in their learning. Um, and the other 1 is just, you know, more on a personal note, and, uh, you know, I think, uh, you teaching is incredibly hard, it's wildly hard and, uh, there's so many reasons why you, uh, invalid valid reasons why you, you know, a teacher may want to leave the classroom, but just always breaks my heart when, when someone feels like.

They don't have what they need. They don't feel supported and it feels like the best option for them is to leave because I know that there are so many kids that are, you know, relying on them and need them once again, zero fault of them. Uh, you know, you're one life to live and you got to do it, but. That is just always the toughest thing to hear, you know, because I think we all have friends that have faced that decision over the last, especially four or five years.

And, um, yeah, and so I think, like, a good part of, like, the motivation of what we're, we're doing, at least, you know, when I think about my work is, let's try and build something that, you know, it's not going to solve those problems. Let's be real. It's not going to solve probably the top three problems that a teacher faces in terms of work life balance and many other things.

But, um, if we can do something really little, but, you know, simple and make that. Their job just that much better than, than it's worth doing it and we got to go get it done. So

[00:53:10] Fonz: absolutely great answer. Thank you so much for sharing that Jeff. John, now to you, what would you say is your current EduKryptonite?

[00:53:20] Jon: Yeah, I, uh, I guess I echo much of what Jeff just said. Um, I think, I think that, uh, We, I mean, I go back to the math classroom and just like the way that math gets treated. And this is, this is part of why I think when I was a kid in high school, I didn't think math is all that great is just treated as sometimes very narrow, very prescriptive, um, and not really a place to bring your full self or your creativity.

And I think, uh, changing that definitely motivates me.

[00:54:00] Fonz: I love that. I love that. You know, and I'm a big proponent of amplifying creativity. And who says that math class can't be creative? And I think how to also just be able to have those discussions and discourse and allow students to really share their thought process in a very creative way.

I mean, this is creative. I mean, they're, they're dialoguing or using academic vocabulary. They're writing, they're typing, they're hitting all of those. Different modalities. And at the end they get that immediate feedback too, as well. So that's great. That's wonderful. All right. Question number two. This time I'm going to start with John.

John, if you could have a billboard with anything on it, what would it be? And why?

[00:54:41] Jon: Uh, I just, I think like the positive message that comes to mind is like, be curious, like I would want to encourage curiosity. Um, I think curiosity is part of how we build empathy. It's also how we. Like, I think curiosity is at the core of learning, and there's a lot of talk, I think, in education about rigor, and I think rigor starts with curiosity.

If you're not getting your kids curious about something, no amount of, like, challenges you throw at them are going to get them engaged. Um, so, I would choose the words, be curious, if that's not too, uh,

[00:55:23] Fonz: That's good, that's great. Alright, Jeff, now to you. If you could have a billboard with anything on it, what would it be and why?

[00:55:30] Jeff: Uh, so I just have to be totally transparent. The first thing that jumped into my head would be, uh, I think it would be really funny to put John's face on a billboard, just because I think that would be funny. Um, no, no words, just John's face. Maybe like a, you know, confused look.

[00:55:44] Jon: Uh, snorkel dot app.

[00:55:46] Jeff: Yeah, I was going to say now that actually gets to the, um, That

[00:55:48] Jon: was the second, that was my second answer is just put our logo.

I was just going to say that, you know,

[00:55:52] Jeff: even where we are as a company and what we need to accomplish, maybe just putting Snorkel on a billboard would be the prudent thing to do. So that I would go with that. We'll keep it simple.

[00:56:03] Fonz: Hey, that works. It works. Like I said, you can put anything on it. All right.

And the last question, uh, we'll go ahead and start with you, Jeff. The last question is, um, if, or what is a hobby that you have or a favorite activity that you wish you could turn into a full time profession?

[00:56:22] Jeff: I do it every day. I get a chance to code and solve puzzles and build things. I grew up playing with Legos and, uh, you know, I was pretty strong in certain things and, and I honestly, coding is hard in the beginning.

It's like learning a new language. But once you speak that language. It, it, and you're, you know, and you're fluent, it really does just feel like you're playing with Legos again. And, uh, obviously with, uh, you know, there are some considerations that are very important, security and whatnot, but, uh, I still have a lot of fun with it.

[00:56:48] Fonz: Love it. Wonderful. All right, John, over to you. What would be one favorite hobby or activity that you wish you could turn into a full time profession? I

[00:56:58] Jon: like writing, if I had a second life, or maybe in the future, I'd become a writer.

[00:57:04] Fonz: There you go. Is there anything in particular that you'd like to write about?

I,

[00:57:09] Jon: so I, I studied math and philosophy in college, and so I, I like philosophy and theology, and um, you know, reflecting on politics and education. You know, all the questions that feel really big in my mind, but I'm sure my, my thoughts aren't all that interesting to anyone else about those.

[00:57:30] Fonz: Well, that's great.

Well, thank you so much for sharing, guys. I really appreciate your time. Thank you, as always, from the bottom of my heart, just really, again, for Being here today, sharing what you are doing and obviously, uh, bringing it down to my audience too, as well. That's definitely going to be listening to the episode.

And I'm pretty sure that after this episode's released, you're definitely going to have a lot of follows and, uh, hopefully people reaching out to you to learn more about what Snorkel can do for them. So thank you guys so much. I really appreciate you. And for all our audience members that are checking us out, thank you as always for making my EdTech life what it is today.

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