Episode 272: Dr. Nneka McGee

Ep. 272: Dr. Nneka McGee

Beyond The Hype: The Overlooked Aspects of AI in Education

[00:00:27] Fonz: Hello everybody and welcome to another great episode of My EdTech Life. Thank you so much for joining us on this beautiful Tuesday morning, or it may be well into Wednesday, depending on where it is that you're joining us around the world. But wherever it is that you're at, whether it's on the comfort of your couch, if you're off for spring break, or whether you're commuting to work.

It doesn't matter. We just thank you for all of your support. We really appreciate all the likes, the shares, the follows. Thank you so much for really engaging with our content and you know that we do what we do for you so we can bring you some amazing guests and amazing conversations that can help, uh, just continue to help grow our community.

Us in our education space, whether it's professionally or even personally, but also just to get different perspectives on different topics. And today I am really excited for the amazing guest that I have today. But before I let her introduce herself, I just want to give a big shout out to our sponsors.

Thank you so much. Lucid for education, content clips. Thank you so much. Goose chase and edu aid. We really appreciate all of your support and also your belief in our To continue to connect educators one show at a time. Well, I am excited to introduce our wonderful guest here this morning. I have Dr. McGee who is joining us and I'm being very proper.

Dr. McGee. That's just me, the way that I was raised and just. Dr. McGee, you know, but I know you and I, you know, I know you and I have connected and we have been able to meet in real life and be able to be part of a panel. And it is my honor and my pleasure to have you here today. So how are you doing this morning?

[00:02:10] Nneka: I am doing very well. Thank you. And I appreciate you for, you know, providing this platform, um, for us to converse about artificial intelligence tech in general, um, Um, I have followed your podcast for some time now and it has been enlightening and informing. So thank you for creating this space.

[00:02:31] Fonz: Absolutely. And we already have here, we have Marissa. Yay. Let's go. There we go. Thank you, Marissa, for joining us. Well, let's go ahead. And for our audience members who may not be familiar with your work yet. And I know that after today's episode, you're definitely going to get a lot of like shares follows and so on and so forth.

We know that every superhero has an origin story, and this is what I love to start off with, with that. Origin story, because I always love for my audience members to make that connection with our guests. So Dr. McGee, if you can, you know, give us a little bit of an introduction and then kind of walk us through a little bit through your education journey.

And obviously your doctoral work that you've done and in the space that you're in now talking about AI. So we would love to hear that.

[00:03:23] Nneka: Oh, right. So every good origin story, right? Um, basically. If I have to start anywhere, it's with my parents, particularly when it comes to education. Both my parents were mathematicians.

They were both educators in between them. They have 70 years of, um, experience in education and, uh, they instilled in me. A love for learning at an early age. I found my mother was the first assistant dean at the College of Engineering at Ohio State University, and I found a picture of me in her office when I was very young.

And what I thought is that I've always had a chance. Right. My parents came from poverty. It came from Mississippi, deep South. Um, you know, in a time where it was very difficult to get an education. So to, um, become educators and then to instill a love of learning, um, I think was, was essential. And so I did.

When I was in college, um, my dad took me, uh, to Mississippi and I've been to Mississippi. I mean, kind of spent a lot of my childhood there, but at this time, he took me to go see his math teacher and he became a math teacher. And so that was very impactful. But at the time, I didn't realize how impactful.

It was because, uh, education is my second career and I ended up becoming a math teacher. And, uh, after three years, I was, uh, honored. My peers honored me by, um, selecting me as teacher of the year. And I ended up being a district finalist. And that is the only time I've seen my father cry is because I mentioned that story with, uh, Mrs.

McGowan, who was his math teacher. I mean, think about the impact of that. of, you know, my father, you know, decades after graduating thinking it was that important to take me to the backwoods. I mean, in a rural, very rural part of Mississippi. And that has lingered with me. With my dad, it's that influence of an educator.

With my mom, it's being of service because of that impact. And so now, um, you know, I went through I taught math. I also taught reading, but math for for the bulk of the time I was in the classroom. And then I became, uh, started working in administration and, uh, went through director or. coordinator, director, executive director, and then chief academic officer.

And, um, within that time, a lot of my work was about providing access and opportunity, particularly to advanced academics, gifted and talented, um, launching, um, different types of choice schools. And it was in particular for me because a lot of times, um, we think about, uh, choice schools are schools that, that have, um, A different, um, aspect to the learning processes of being exclusive.

And so, uh, my goal was to always make sure that they were as inclusive as possible. And, um, so that was very important work to me. I, I launched, um, with lead teams, um, 10 schools are, um, our programs, but mainly, uh, schools within schools. And, um, that was very exciting work. So as chief, uh, my final, uh, position, um, You know, that I was in, uh, as chief academic officer, I worked with 18 schools, 9, 000 plus, uh, uh, excuse me, students in the Valley, uh, Rio Grande Valley, Texas for those.

And, uh, it was just such an awesome experience. And, you know, you know, the Valley, it's just good heart, good family. Families strong community. Oh, man, it was just such a great experience to be there. And so that leans into I was just honored to bring and to be a part of the, um, initial kind of evolution of artificial intelligence and education in the valley with the work that we were doing in the district.

And we started, uh, we had the Valley Artificial Intelligence Summit last year. That was amazing. We started the Greyhound Astro project, which was, and I'm sure we'll get into like how to implement AI into schools, but taking a measured approach. Making sure teachers were in the center of the process. Like, you can't do it without the teachers.

They're closest to the students. And that was great work. And obviously, as you mentioned in December of last year, I did defend my dissertation and, uh, my studies did. Center on teachers implementing or preparing to implement artificial intelligence in, uh, K 12 schools in the United States. And so, um, just a combination of five years of work, um, before the chat, GPT hype, the generative AI hype.

Um, I've, I've been working through and studying, uh, artificial intelligence and education and currently, um. Using those experiences to leverage opportunities, not only for teachers, but ultimately for our students and to prepare them for a future that, um, that they can, you know, acclimate to whatever the stance.

[00:08:48] Fonz: Wow, that is amazing. And so that's just an amazing journey. And I know that. We, you just covered just barely the tip of the iceberg because I know that we can go in deeper. But one of the things that I do want to say is that I do appreciate the work that you have done here in the RGV or the Rio Grande Valley and in my area.

And to be honest with you, it's like being where I'm at over here in, in, in the McAllen area, Edinburgh area, and so on. It's very rare that we'll hear about what's going on over there in the counties neighboring because we're just here. But. When I started hearing like, oh my gosh, and following you on LinkedIn.

And I was like, who is this person? And to be honest with you, when I was like, like San Benito, is that like San Benito here? Or is that like a San Benito, California and so on? Because I was like, I have never heard of anybody doing this. here in the valley. And then I was like, Oh my gosh, this is amazing.

And so the work that you've done here and what you've done in San Benito is definitely, you know, been something that's inspiring for me and doing it over here in, in the lower row, Grand Valley too, as well. And it was just an honor that. You know, we got to be and meet in person at TCA this last year. So big shout out to TCA that two people from the real Grandy Valley were able to be on this AI panel that we had on that Monday for that power hour.

And. And it was just amazing that, you know, just to be there side by side with you and just to hear your thoughts and be able to learn from you. And I know that our audience, the audience members there, I got a lot of great feedback and, uh, you know, from a lot of the things that you were saying. And of course we had Matt, uh, Matt Miller, Rochelle, uh, Denae Poth that were there too as well.

And so that was a great experience. So, uh, let's talk a little bit about. You know, I do want to cover what the work that you're doing as far as being able to implement and doing things the right way. But before we get into that, you know, right now, I think that we, like you mentioned, and I, I gave you credit.

I forget what episode it was that you, to me, I was like, I'd never heard it before. So I said, I think Dr. McGee coined the phrase cautious advocate. So. You know, and I love that because going through my doctoral studies right now, getting into dissertation. But before that, I had just come out and so I did a research paper and we had to do.

Okay. What are the pros and the cons? And then I went into this rabbit hole of like, Hey, this is very difficult. Dangerous, you know, as far as the data privacy aspect of it, data rentiership, what companies can do with data. And that kind of put me at a pause where I was, and I am, you know, a teacher and still an educator with that loves to share apps and share tools that can help enhance learning.

But now I'm very cautious too, to make sure that the, the safety of our children is always in mind. The safety of my teachers is always in mind. And obviously the safety of our district is always in mind with, you know, the data and data privacy issues. So I want to talk to you a little bit about. You know, the hype right now that we've seen in the education classrooms with a lot of these apps, what are your thoughts right now, as far as what you're seeing?

Many people post on social media or maybe a lot of educators, uh, practicing within their classrooms with AI at this moment.

[00:12:13] Nneka: So first, you know, I'm again going to shout out before I answer that question because you're right, Rio Grande Valley. And I was, I was humbled and honored to be in a little teeny tiny district near the border, you know, where we have schools straddling the border of Mexico and to say, Hey, nationally, you're going to know, like, this is where this work is coming from and think of the impact, right?

It does not matter where you come from. It does not matter your origin story. You have the capability given the appropriate access and opportunity to do it. And that was what was, that is what I will hold on to for a very long time. I feel like That's the legacy that my parents have, um, instilled in me.

And so, um, I'm always going to, to honor them in that way. Um, but that being said, in terms of artificial intelligence, I am a cautious advocate, and one of the first things is, um, people were surprised when, uh, initially in our district, I decided to, uh, limit access to chat GPT. And at the time they're like, Oh, man, I thought you were in it.

I thought you were 100%. And at the time, the terms of service were 18 years and up. There's very few students who can access that. And then in terms of the teachers who were, you know, brand new, um, to CHAT GPT, it was like, how, what are we going to do to ensure that we are safely implementing this program into the district in a way that protects, um, Not only the students, but also the teachers.

And so I felt like we were not there yet. And so it was essential in order to get there to, um, limit access to chat GPT, but also keeping in mind that way before chat GPT artificial intelligence. And I know that many listeners have probably heard this has been around for decades. It has been in products used in education for decades, and so there was no way to ban, you know, artificial intelligence.

It's just the products within themselves. And that's where the cautious advocacy comes because, um, it is no secret that many of the companies that use large language models use the inputs or what we're inputting into the system to help train their models. And again, as adults, if I want to, and I'm an avid user of Chad TPT, it is so helpful.

I'm an avid user of other forms of artificial intelligence. However, um, if I can make the choice and say, I, this is using it to train data, our kids need to also make that choice. And so that's where my cautious advocacy comes in. And those are the types of things I think we need to think about as we, um, As we think through what we're doing with artificial intelligence implementation.

[00:15:23] Fonz: Yeah, you know, and that's a great point that you mentioned. And 1 of the things that I do see and don't get me wrong. That's the way that I was when I was still in the classroom. When I went to TCA in 2018, that kind of just, you know, changed my life as far as just wanting to integrate technology and so on.

So I was that teacher that I would go to a conference and, you know, Take something that I learned. I was like, okay, we're going to implement it. We're going to do this and you know, let's go for it and so on. So let's just do it, you know? And then I would find work or work arounds and things of that sort.

But I just wanted to get the tech in the student's hands and never realizing, you know, the terms of service. I never read those things. I was like, I downloaded, it's like, yeah, click yes. And let's go and let's just use this and do those things. And now, like I mentioned, after writing my paper that I had to do for that class, um, It just kind of changed my thinking and the thought process.

And what we're seeing now is, you know, that hype within these, I guess, student facing apps that are out there that many educators are using, that many companies are pushing now they've opened it up to kinder, uh, You know, and they're using, you know, these chat bots for kinder. And my thing is when I go to those companies and I see their terms of service, that's where I'm just very cautious when, and I mentioned this to you and I've even posted it up on social media where the verbiage is, you know, no, we do not save your data.

No, we don't do this. However. We do plug in into these third parties, and one of them is OpenAI. So we talk about the age. So obviously we know that it was 18 and over, and then they brought it down to 13, but then it says parental consent. So my question is, how many of those teachers or districts, uh, you know, changed the terms of agreement as far as their technology?

Um, use agreement. Uh, did they notify parents that this is being used or teachers notifying parents? That's where I'm kind of cautious on. And, um, so what are your thoughts as far as maybe some of the verbiage that's used there on the terms of privacy? Um, you know, what's, what's your experience been? Cause I know that you've been to several other conferences and presented, and I would love to hear your perspective.

[00:17:39] Nneka: So, yes, you're absolutely correct. And you know, I, I don't wanna just focus on, on, on chat GBT because this is, this is EdTech in general and artificial intelligence, and I think a lot of times we conflate like that chat. GBT is like the, that is artificial intelligence and there's so many aspects of, it's one tiny aspect of generative ai.

Even though it's very impactful, right? But, but there, there's an expansive space there. When it comes to the terms of service agreements, we have to look at some very important, uh, regulations that guide us, um, particularly in my focus in, uh, it's going to be in the United States right now, but, uh, COPPA, first of all, Which does require if you know students 13 years of age, you know, they there does have to be a parental consent component.

Also, we know FERPA in terms of protecting student data and personal personal identifiable information. And what happens and what it happened in the districts I've served, I'm sure in the district you serve, a lot of what we've become used to is at the beginning of the year, the, the parent signing, you know, the, the form that's going to allow them to, you know, can we, uh, provide access, digital access to tools in the district.

A lot of times it's that single sign on, right? That allows them to access a myriad of tools and a parent and legal guardian signs. Yes, yes. You can provide, you know, provide my child access to these tools. Well, there's a specific term for it. It's called in local parenthesis. And, um, in a lot of times that is a way that districts are able to say, Hey, you've provided us, you know, the opportunity to give access to companies to, for your children to use these products.

In this moment, what we have to look at is do these agreements as they're currently written, provide the proper verbiage to for what is happening. So if there is a product out there that, you know, a AI powered tool that is collecting data, that is using the inputs that we are providing, as you know, to train their models.

Is that do the agreements that we're saying our kids can enter in this data? Does that, you know, meet that moment there and why that is essential in the fear of what you talked about? And why? I think another reason this has become the forefront. Is that so many districts have become, you know, the victims of data breaches.

You know, our district had a data breach. It's, it's publicly available. I'm not, you know, telling a secret. I'm not, it had nothing to do necessarily with AI, but when you have to mail out 30, 000 letters saying that, you know, your, you know, child's data or your data is out in the dark web and we have to provide remedies.

Think about, okay, a parent or a family having to address that issue. And then you hear about this nebulous kind of scary shadow, shadowy AI that the only references you have are from pop culture. And so you're thinking Terminator and I robot robot that is, that has the potential. To have really negative consequences, particularly when, like you said, if I'm a family member for, you know, and obviously this is a hypothetical, but if some for some reason, there is a data breach that's attributed to the data.

That, you know, is from an AI powered company. And then you're getting a letter from a third party provider that you have never known about. Like, I thought I was using this product and I'm getting a letter from a third party vendor. I've never heard of this. Can you imagine? What a family, um, of a parent or legal guardian could feel and how they would react, we are in a position now where that reality does not have to occur because we can demand and we can work with.

I don't want to even say demand. We can collaborate with these with EdTech companies to say we can do it right. We can be transparent. There's nothing wrong with being transparent when it comes to our kids. And, and so that's how I would answer that question.

[00:22:27] Fonz: No, and that is a wonderful answer because one of the things like I mentioned that really scares me, like you mentioned the third party in reading terms of service and agreements, you know, it, it sounds really nice in the beginning.

You go down, you know, people are probably like, okay, this is great. Like I saw points AB, but if you really go down and you really start seeing this and, and, and just really know what it is that you're looking for, I'm always looking for that third party. And like I said to you, one of the things that kind of goes along with what you said, my fear is this too, not only for the family and the parent, obviously too, you know, as far as, you know, loss of money for a district in the sense of this.

Now, I. I always go back to dev day, uh, back in what, November and when open AI had dev day and before that, there was a lot of little mini platforms, mini apps that were coming out for 5 a month. Like, you know, just upload your PDF and you can find information and so on. So you've got little companies that are kind of like, all right, I'm making some money.

And then all of a sudden dev day happened and it's like, Hey, well now we already have the ability to create your own GPTs and do this. And all of a sudden. You know, those people, I was like, why am I paying 5 here, 5 there and 5 here? And then all of a sudden those companies kind of went under or you don't see them anymore.

So my fear is the following because a lot of these apps use or plug into open AI. Really to me, I liken it to a fancy wrapper. It's just open AI packaged differently. And so a company comes to me and says, Hey, funds, Hey, you know what? You know, for 2, 000, you know, we can open all of this up for your district and you can use it and you'll be fine.

And you only paying 2, 000 for the rest of the year. So that's, you know, issue number one. It'd be like, Oh, okay, excellent. Like, you know, that sounds great. It's only 2, 000. You go tell your people. And then all of a sudden it's like, man, this app is so good. Teachers are going to want it. Let's sign on for three years.

And then let's say like another dev day happens. And all of a sudden now the, the APIs change the access changes. And now that company says, Ooh, I can no longer serve you. And then I'm out. You know, but now you're out that money, or what if that data breach happens and says, Hey, you can only go to the third party because in our terms of services, you can't come after us.

So where does that put that district? That is my fear too, as well. All that legal jargon. And now you're out maybe that subscription money, but not only that, do you have enough money to go out and go after the third party, which would be open AI. The other thing that I wanted to add. Dr. McGee is, was it yesterday?

I had Tom Mulaney on the show and he mentioned something very powerful. He said access to your firewall is a privilege. So CTOs, you know, thinking about what it is that you're doing and, and who, whom it is that you're letting, You know, access into your district to that is a privilege to them. So we need to be cautious there too.

And really looking through these, uh, terms of service and agreements, because the last thing you want is to be in a legal battle lasting you want is also for that family to be in danger because of those data breaches. So, you know, that's something that I see as well. And I know that's something that kind of goes along with what you're saying and those fears.

So in going through, I know you visited several conferences. What is it that you're hearing maybe from other district leaders? What are they doing to be active in trying to not necessarily saying that we're against a aisle together, but how are they kind of maybe even slowing things down a bit? Uh, you know what?

What steps are they taking? So I would love for you to share that with us since you're getting access to Awesome leaders and all the conferences that you're going to, what have you heard out there?

[00:26:22] Nneka: So, um, what, one point I, I definitely want to kind of circle back to is that, you know, I think that the fact that, you know, open AI and their API is available and for people to do things to start companies, um, to build and provide opportunities for, um, the big word of the day is save teachers time.

If that's what you're trying to do, or some who are getting to more student facing products, you know, I don't have an issue with that at all. I don't open is not the only 3rd party. If you go into, I'm sorry, you know, I would say anyone who goes into 1 of the open cookies that where they had a cookie transparency.

I went to 1 1 time to 700 and this was recently. Within the last month, there were 702 different organizations tracking, you know, with the choice that I would have made. And of course, I started, you know, going through and denying, you know, which cookies were available. So there, there are thousands of companies that track us and cookies and those 3rd parties.

And so I just want us to be aware and careful because I don't want to. You know, stigma, stigmatized one company, um, or organization when really, when you think about where we are in this space, we would not be here had it not. I mean, think about the impact and all of the positive impact. That has occurred because of chat GPT.

I can tell you, not only have I been working, I had been working on my, my doctoral studies for some, some time before November of 2022, but I was actually on a panel, uh, at ISTE that same year, and it was about emerging trends and we thought we knew everything. And before that in 2021, uh, and I had posted the podcast I did, uh, with, uh, some amazing individuals.

And we were like, man, those chat bots are getting sophisticated, but had no idea, right? Even from there. Um, so there's a lot of positive impact, but going back to cautious advocacy and going back to, you know, what people are talking about. And I talk not only in conferences. But I talk with ed tech companies.

I talk with school district administrators. I, you know, was in a position to make many of the decisions regarding access and opportunity to different artificial intelligence powered tools. And so cautious advocacy means, you know, we don't want to be barriers to access, right? Do what you want to do.

Companies be innovative. You know, dream and make the realities of of tools that can help us, you know, as a catalyst into the next, you know, industrial age. However, be transparent, make sure that you are protecting our students data, and then as well, make sure that you are minimizing bias. Based on your large language models.

You know, there are things out there. The, the DOJ has, uh, or, um, sorry, department of Education has come out with, you know, guidelines. The Edaf AI Alliance has come out with guidelines. Um, there, uh, UNESCO has come out with guidelines different. There are, I think, seven different states right now. Not the only states, but are actually coming through and, and, and.

Grappling with Colson has come out with guidelines. So there are places for, you know, district administrators, school administrators, educators from across the spectrum in our educational ecosystem to become aware. But I'm going to tell you what I'm seeing, and we are in a bubble because I was at a conference recently and I was like, hey, I'm in my space.

Let's let's get ready to talk about and out of that audience. Only 2 people. I even use chat GPT and many of them when I went through and like had the list of the most popular ed tech tools, tools that are AI powered tools zip. They're like, really? Wow. And so what I want us to be aware of is that we are in a bubble and there are thousands of districts and educators out there who have not been exposed to.

The various intricacies of artificial intelligence. And so there still is a large education piece that has to happen in building capacity, but it also is opportunity to do it the right way. We cannot look back two years, five years, 10 years from now and say, Oh, how did that happen? We will know exactly how it happened because we didn't do what we needed to do to make sure it's, it's correct.

So the first thing again, just circling back to your question, the first thing is how do we get information to do things the right way? So I talked through those companies, ISTE doing it right. Teach AI, you know, with code. org. Doing it right. Um, nonprofits such as AI Edge U, um, doing it right. Innovate Edge U, trying to do it right.

Um, again, uh, COSEN, you know, um, in states. So there are plenty of places to go. And then second, continuing to build capacity, and that's where individuals such as myself, yourself comes in. There are plenty of people out there, um, who are continuing this conversation and continuing acts, uh, actions to ensure that now we're building the A.

1. Literacy. So that as districts are contemplating the integration of generative AI in particular, because there's a lot of AI that's in your systems that have been there for years, and it's okay. It helps. It's not a dark shadowy thing. Um, but with the generative AI aspects and what it can do, um, there's a lot more building capacity and that's okay.

That's opportunity.

[00:32:43] Fonz: No, and I agree with you 100%. You know, some of the, I was reading the UNESCO report too, as well. And just learning a lot about those things. And to me, I think too, and you mentioned it, uh, the bias that that to me is one of the biggest fears too, as well, that, you know, my, my fear again, Not that I'm anti, you know, this tech and technology and so on, but it's just like you said, if we can do it right, it's definitely going to be very beneficial.

And even though it's been out for over a year now, year and a half going on, you know, it's just moving fast, you know. Just thinking about those things as far as the outputs and seeing teachers kind of take that first output as kind of gospel and saying, Oh, no, this is what it gave me, this is what is, it must be correct because all I did was just copy my standard and I popped it into.

Any application out there. Not like I said, not naming any of them, but that used generative AI and say, Nope, this has got to be true. And going back to a lot of, uh, platforms out there that I think are, you mentioned giving teachers time back. Yeah, it can give teachers some time back. It can give teachers some of those aspects and getting tools available to them.

But my thing too is just being very cautious too as a teacher. And that's where the PD comes in and in really helping our teachers understand what to look for and just kind of still comb through those outputs, because again, the it's only information is what it has from that data set and what kind of information has been given.

And we want to make sure that the outputs are factual and that there is no bias in those outputs too, as well. So as far as teacher training. Uh, you know, I, can you tell us a little bit about you kind of here when you were in, uh, San Benito, maybe just kind of model that for us. Maybe there's a district out there that is looking for an idea, hasn't seen one, and maybe they can hear from you.

What is it that you did in San Benito? To kind of bring your teachers into the know or into the knowledge and know how of generative AI to help them out.

[00:34:51] Nneka: So I'm, I'm going to, I'm going to layer this question. I'm a tieredist in several ways. And so the first tier that you talked about, because it was a part of my, my research and my findings in terms of professional development with educators.

Um, at the time it was non existent. Um, when, uh, you know, when we're in this generative AI explosion, some of the, uh, professional development offerings I saw were, um, I feel like inadequate because, um, there were a lot of misperceptions regarding generative AI, its possibilities and, um, what. What it is able to provide, um, going back to, like you said, the, you know, that isn't always accurate.

Right? Um, I think a lot of that, uh, persisted and, and leaves us kind of where we are, but ultimately, I'm going to tell you when it came to the research, if the districts, uh, that's where, that's where teachers mainly rely. On their districts to provide professional development, because generally, the professional development that is provided by districts are aligned to their goals to their values to their mission and teachers, given everything that's on their plates, there are those innovative early adopter teachers that are out there that are within our bubble that are excited, but outside the bubble.

It's like, what is the district? What, what, what are they requiring of me as a professional educator? That's where I'm going to put my focus and that's where I'm going to invest. And so if districts were not focused on, um, providing professional development in artificial intelligence, that professional development was non existent in those districts, leaving even those early adopters in a position of what do I do?

In addition to, um, you know, the at the district aspects, even if there were regional offerings, they were minimum. And then think about the financial and geographic barrier, geographical barriers for teachers. Who are underpaid who who really want to know, like, this is happening out there in this space. I want to be aware as an educator, because I know I've heard my students talking about it.

I know probably my own kids are using it. I want to be in a position. To provide guidance and have some understanding as an educator. But all this conference that is all about artificial intelligence. Is not only 4 or 5 states away, but, but will cost. Once you pay for hotel and conference fees and everything, 2500 to 3, 000.

So those are issues. And so what needs to occur is that more districts need to be intentional about what they want to provide in terms of artificial intelligence, which means they decisions have to be made in terms of our what level do we want to implement it. In our districts, so in my particular district, I took a measured approach.

So that's why we had the Greyhound Astor project. And so it was a gathering of 54 teachers, 6, um, kind of district personnel, including coaches, a coordinator. And, you know, products would come, you know, they were, um, product, um, vendors would come, um, present to the Astra team, um, with their product, how it works.

And the team would vet those products and provide feedback. And at the same time, you know, thinking through what are the literacy, AI literacy aspects that we need to talk about. So. You know, first and foremost, protection of student data. How do you use it? Not putting in student information. Um, you know, being a cosmic, I can never say that word.

Right? So I'm not going to even it always twisted my time. So be aware of, um, you know, the aspects of how students are using it. And how you can leverage it and so that it's not, um, something to fear. Right. Um, so it's something to be familiar with and to advocate for. And so that's how we did in our district.

It's a measured approach and it goes back to, I would never ever. And this is 1 of the things that people are like, well. I don't do three years agree agreement starting off with any company. I'll pay to, yeah, try. Oh, you could get a multi year discount. That's okay. Because if it doesn't work out, if those uses reports and the teachers who are who are working with students every day are not using your product.

It's not worth it for me to have it for 3 years. So when your agreements, if you are a district person out there in this space, take it from someone who was doing that work and you know, in and out every day, don't do multi year agreements, vet, be measured. It's okay to take, it's okay to breathe. AI is, it has been here since the 1960s in education and it will continue to be here.

It is okay to be, you know, breathe the measure and really interrogate and The reality of product integration in your classrooms and doing a measured approach allows that because even beyond that, uh, you, you're an ed tech leader. I've seen plenty of products go through this space. And then we're looking at the usage reports, like what happened?

Why is no one using this product that we paid, you know, a great deal of money for, and it does go back to the training and then an alignment of goals. If, if, If I don't know where it is, artificial intelligence fits within the scope and sequence of the work that I do every every day. I'm not using it. So we have to make sure so that goes back to the other piece.

Not only do teachers have to be trained, but our curricular designers. Our instructional specialists, how are we building the capacity of where AI fits within the scope and sequence of the subjects that we teach? Because again, we're, we're trying to push not only that AI is beyond, you know, the computer scientists, many of us will not become computer scientists, but we need to be aware of.

Of AI and how it fits within our society. And finally, I know I've been talking a bit long, but I'm going to tell you a simple kind of activity that I always use now. And it was a fluke because I was thinking about computational thinking and, you know, AI is, it's just math. It's not some mystical thing out there.

It's very complicated probability, right? And at its, at its core. But anyway, um, and so I had a plate and I was like, how can I really think through, uh, the plate? And so we always talk about things being on teacher's plate. So I'm planning this activity out and I'm like, yeah, I'm going to do this with plates and teachers and educators understand.

Cause our plates are always full. So I went through and I was like, I'm going to draw some eyes and I'm going to draw a nose and I'm going to do a smile. And I literally put that into chat, you know, to the chat GPT and it came out and it didn't have a nose, even though it had instructions. So I do that activity to show you always need to check.

So it doesn't matter that we're giving all the right, you know, prompts to generative AI. And this is not, trust me, it wasn't just chat GPT. There's other chat bots out there, which we all know. But, but in this particular instance, it didn't draw the nose, but But for all generative A. I. It provides the lesson of how we as the final piece of this is the human.

And the last thing I will say is what a time in education to bring humanity back to our work. That's what is exciting to me. And that's what I think the potential where the potential of A. I. Lies.

[00:43:06] Fonz: Oh, I love it. I mean, you hit on pretty much everything as far as that question is concerned. And then some.

So I really appreciate you sharing that expertise because again, I know that there's plenty of resources that are out there and so on. But sometimes when. People listen to it and hear it from somebody that has done it. And just the way that you described it, that can definitely help out. So for all our audience members that are listening and those of you that are in CTO positions, instructional, uh, digital learning coaches or tech coaches, uh, curriculum, you know, and instruction people, I mean, this was just a great model to follow and it's something that's measured because you're absolutely right.

You know, many times when I came into this role eight years ago, it was, you know, Hey, I need it is the first time I looked at usage reports because I was new to the role. And then all of a sudden I'm the one making the decisions. It's like, Nope, this has got to go. No, this has got to go. And the hate that you would get from teachers, but, but it was the hate that I would get would be from like those two teachers that used it.

And I said, I'm sorry. I mean, we, this is not sustainable because we're paying for these many licenses and it's only you two that are using it. So, you know, you find different approaches to all that, but I love what you said as far as. It's okay to not have to commit. I know sometimes what happens is we look at that bottom line and we look at how much money we can save, but in the long run, we may lose out more just because like you mentioned, it's like, what if we sign an offer two or three years and then it's not being used?

We just lost out on that much money that we could have just said, Hey, you know what we did one year. Let's invest in something else, but also the importance of having stakeholders in there, having the teachers, your end users that are there that are going to be student facing, and they're the ones that need to be equipped with those tools.

So I love that you had, uh, Platforms visit, whether it's virtually or in person, that the teachers were able to ask questions directly to them, see the way that the application works and kind of start thinking about, okay, how may I use this to enhance this lesson? How may I use this to enhance this lesson or for tier 2 support and so on?

And then going back to. That fear of AI, I think for a lot of people, you're absolutely right that it has been there for a very long time and except that now that it's forward facing, you know, it just seems like, Oh my gosh, what is this? When there are multiple programs that are out there that offer that tiered support to the student based on inputs that they put in, it kind of guides them through a pathway, you know, very similar way, you know, the math The math that goes behind it.

It's a math equation that is working to help do in all that level setting. So that's great. So, I mean, this is an amazing conversation and we could definitely have a part two on it as well. But, uh, Dr. McGee, I just really appreciate your time. Thank you so much for being here and sharing and just sharing your passion.

And for all our audience members that are listening right now, live, you know, I, Got some comments here from LinkedIn. We've got, you know, a lot of viewers right now live, please make sure that you connect with Dr. McGee as well. You know, if you have any questions, she would be a great person to bounce ideas off of, and she is definitely wonderful and knowledgeable, and that she can share her experience with you.

And I myself. Personally, I find her to be just amazing. The fact that I got to meet her and just that wonderful smile and that joy that she has, she is amazing. So definitely if you ever get a chance to connect with her in real life, please do so. It's definitely going to be worth it because she is an amazing human being.

So thank you, Dr. McGee for being here on my show. It's an honor and a pleasure. And also thank you for just being here. Being a great friend. I think I consider you a friend now. And just that we have that, that bond here from the real Grandi Valley, the nine, five, six. That's right. That's what we do here in the Valley.

So thank you. And so Dr. McGee, before we close up and I always end the show with three questions, except I forgot to put those on your invite, but if you're familiar with the show, you'll know what they are. And even if you're not familiar with those last three questions, let me know. Don't worry. I know that you'll have some great answers, but I'm going to

hallucinate.

[00:47:27] Fonz: Exactly. There you go. I love it. So, um, I wanted to give you some time right now, just if you can, if you can let our audience members, those of them that are watching live, or those of them that will be, uh, catching this on the replay, how may they be able to reach out to you, if they have any questions. to bring you to their district to come and speak to them.

[00:47:53] Nneka: Yeah. Um, so LinkedIn is, is where I spend most of my time. Uh, I'm not, interestingly, not a like huge, the social media, but I, I, but LinkedIn is like a great, um, I'm finding a great place for interaction. I tell you that that messaging, like there's the, the open LinkedIn. And then there's the messaging LinkedIn.

Oh, man, it's a happy place to be, um, my website there. I'm still, you know, working through it, but, um, thank you for posting my website. Um, they could meet the McGee dot com, um, for, um, to for individuals who would like to schedule to learn more about, um, the work that I do and the impact. That I'm seeking to have, you know, in not only the, the, uh, artificial intelligence space, but it tech in general, like I said, um, we can focus a lot on AI, but quantum computing is right around the corner and, you know, other aspects of the educational space.

So how can we truly transform education? That's what I'm looking forward to. So thank you for sharing that information and, you know, join me on LinkedIn or visit my website and I'm happy to have a discussion.

[00:49:06] Fonz: Absolutely. And you're absolutely right. LinkedIn has been a blast and I'm loving it. Like I said, it's just great way to network and obviously hear different perspectives and, and that's what I'm all about, you know, and having these conversations.

And I think today, you know, what you shared is amazing and wonderful. Just so we can all hear. From different people and different voices within the ed tech space. Not just again, I know we're talking about AI, but I know that there's a lot more out there to still as far as AI and other ed tech, uh, you know, platforms and practices and so on.

But it's always great just to connect here. And it's, I think to me, like you mentioned, one of the things that you said, it's transparency is okay. And I've been fully transparent that I'm not. Anti technology or anti AI, I just, I just want it done right because I don't want this to happen like in a year from now and be like, oops, data breaches, oops, data, this, oops, data, that, and just asking for just transparency, great practice.

From everybody and all parties alike so we can continue moving education forward. And that's really my mission. So thank you so much for all your wonderful shares and the passion that you bring. So now, before we wrap up, let's go ahead and end the show with these last three questions. I'm going to go ahead and put my, get my input here into the chat.

Dr. McGee, Dr. McGee, GPT. And so, no. All right. So question number one, Dr. McGee is we know that every superhero has a weakness or a pain point. So Superman, for example, his weakness was kryptonite and that, that was his big pain point. So I want to ask you, uh, Dr. McGee in the current state of education, and this is all together.

It doesn't have to be AI. It could just be anything that you choose, but in the current state of What would you say is your current edu kryptonite?

[00:50:54] Nneka: Oh, my edu kryptonite is, uh, perfectionism. I just, uh, and I know that sounds crazy, but, but it's okay. Like what I'm learning is failure is opportunity. But it is a constant reminder for me, and I think it extends to our system, right?

If you think about things that that why sometimes people are afraid to try out technology to embrace technology and innovation. It's because of that fear of failure, like if it's not perfect or if I'm not, you know, at the top of my game when I'm presenting it, um, then, then I want to back away from it.

And so, um, but, but I have, you know, in terms of wanting things to be perfect for myself, particularly because I feel like I'm working with kids. And, and our students deserve every opportunity to be amazing because I look at my family, you know, my parents journey and the opportunities they gave me. And, and that's what gets me excited.

It's like, I want our kids to be able to do whatever they want to do and to have success on their, you know, individual levels that just, you know, that's what gets me up in the morning. And so, um, but, but it's okay when things aren't, you know, a hundred percent, that's such an important lesson. And so that is a lifelong learning lesson for me.

[00:52:21] Fonz: I love it. Thank you so much for sharing that. And the one thing that came to mind is I know it's not his direct quote, but I had a, uh, one of my favorite guests that I've had, Al Kingsley, and he told me it's like failure, uh, Or failures are stepping stones to success. So, so things to think about there.

And you're absolutely right. You just want to bring your 100 percent A game to your students or in anything that you're presenting is definitely something that I myself struggle with many times too. All right. Here's question number two, Dr. McGee. If you could have a billboard with anything on it, what would it be and why?

[00:53:00] Nneka: Oh, yeah. You know what? If I could have a billboard, it would have the message that I have at the top of my LinkedIn page. And I'll tell you what it says. It says, all students can achieve success. Success is different for each student. And every student deserves access and opportunity. That would be my message.

[00:53:23] Fonz: That is powerful. That is a great, great message. Awesome. All right. Last question. Do you have a hobby or favorite activity that you wish you could turn into a full time job if you could?

[00:53:39] Nneka: You know what? I am a creative. And I kind of talked about this, uh, in a post yesterday on LinkedIn, because I found like a old main script when I was writing.

So, um, I'm living in my space. So, you know, as long as I can create and, and, you know, have, have, um, Make a difference. Um, that that's what's important for me is to be of service is to, like I said, my family's legacy, my parents legacy. So if I'm able to create in that space, that allows me to serve. I am at home.

[00:54:17] Fonz: I love it. Dr. McGee. I love it. Like seriously, like definitely have that, that servant leadership, that servant's heart, and it just really shines through. And thank you so much for again, bringing me so much joy with this conversation. Again, being able to reconnect with you after TCA and now reconnecting with you again, and again, hearing just about your wonderful success.

And obviously I'm a big time LinkedIn follower. Also, congratulations on all the success that you've been having and being able to be a presenter at various conferences and just bringing your insight and experience is something that is valuable here for our education space. And also, you know, through this conversation, as we strive to bring these conversations into our space to help all our educators hear things from different perspectives, equip themselves, and just to be able to learn more.

From one another and obviously just connecting with one another, which is what I love and amplifying your work and your voice. So thank you so much for today and for all our audience members that joined us on LinkedIn, on YouTube, on Facebook, on X or Twitter. Uh, you know, I love, I think I'm, I'm a Twitter guy.

I just, it's weird saying X, but regardless of where it is that you joined us from. Thank you so much for making my ed tech day, excuse me, my ed tech life, part of your day today. So if you are catching this live and you want to share this on the replay, please make sure that you visit our website at my ed tech dot life, my ed tech dot life, where you can check out this amazing episode and the other 271 amazing episodes where I promise you, you will find a little bit of something that Just for you, where you can take some knowledge nuggets from and sprinkle them on to what you are already doing.

Great. We have amazing conversations with founders, educators, education, practitioners, creators. So thank you as always for all of your support and my friends until next time. Don't forget, stay techie.