Episode 321: Micah Shippee

[00:00:30] Fonz: Hello everybody and welcome to another great episode of My EdTech Live. Thank you so much for joining us on this wonderful day and wherever it is that you're joining us from around the world.

[00:00:39] Fonz: Thank you as always for all of your support. We appreciate all the likes to share as the follows. Thank you so much for engaging with our content, for giving us some wonderful feedback. Thank you so much. As you know, we do what we do for you to bring you some amazing conversations with amazing guests. To continue to nurture our education landscape and [00:01:00] just to continue to see different perspectives and different viewpoints.

[00:01:03] Fonz: And today I'm really excited to welcome back a second time guest and I'm really excited to welcome him back because he does some amazing work. He is a great mentor also as well, and I always love catching up with him. Micah Shippee, thank you so much for coming back to the show. How are you doing today?

[00:01:22] Micah: I'm doing well. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Love coming back to the show.

[00:01:26] Fonz: Absolutely. And I love having you back, my friend, and it's always great to catch up with you at conferences, just kind of talk to you, get to hang out, hear the work that you're doing. And today we're definitely gonna be talking about some, uh, great work that you have just released right here.

[00:01:42] Fonz: 2059 future of education. So we'll definitely make sure we link that in the show notes. But before we dive in, for those that may not be familiar with your work just yet, for all our new audience members, all our new listeners, can you give us a little brief [00:02:00] introduction and what your context is within the education space?

[00:02:03] Micah: For sure. Um, number one, my background. 22 years of public education, teaching middle school all as a classroom teacher for all 22 years. Uh, serving as an ed tech consultant, helping teachers globally in the adoption of innovation journey. Uh, I definitely view it as a journey. My first book was Wanderlust, DDU.

[00:02:24] Micah: Um, I served as a ed tech, uh, coach for the Google Innovator Academy. A little bit with the Google Earth team and as a consultant with some big tech organizations before joining Samsung three years ago as the Director of Education Solutions, where I built out a team of world class best in the business education coaches that serve schools, in the adoption process of Samsung technology.

[00:02:49] Fonz: Excellent. Well, definitely a great background and like I said, you, I know you were here also. We talked about wonder loss a little bit. We definitely talked a little bit about AI as that was coming [00:03:00] out, and you are definitely a big advocate on change in education. I know the last time you were here, one of the most memorable codes also was, you know, we're still, you know, costumes still look the same in rows.

[00:03:12] Fonz: Industrial revolution type education belt to be, you know, and all that good stuff. But today I'm really excited because like I said, I just shared here, you just released a book 2059, the Future of Education. So I wanna ask you specifically about the book title 2059. Now, that's quite a specific timeframe.

[00:03:30] Fonz: It's about 35 years. Um. Into, of course, the future of education. And so I wanna ask you about that. Why 2059? What was going on through your mind and your thought process as of course, we know ai, uh, generative AI coming out in 2022 and now, and what you've seen in your experience. Tell us a little bit behind, uh, about the story behind that.

[00:03:53] Micah: Sure. Yeah. Um, well, I've always been fascinated by the work of futurists, often in sci-fi for [00:04:00] entertainment or escapism. But I really thought it was neat to look ahead to the future with a hyperfocus on education because I hadn't seen that done. Predicting the future, if you will, is a challenge and, um, either brave insane.

[00:04:15] Micah: I haven't decided which yet. I picked the year 2059 because when I started the book, I gave myself the same amount of time that George Orwell gave himself in 1984. And I thought, okay, if George Orwell's gonna predict this dystopian future, 35 years ahead. Why don't I do the same? And so I intended to release the book in 2024, but missed my mark by three months and frankly fell in love with the title, so I kept it.

[00:04:42] Fonz: There you go. Excellent. Well, let's talk a little bit about that because I know you talked about Orwell here and you're talking about the future and some of these predictions, like you said, that things that you see that might be difficult to defend later on. And I know that's something that you wrote because like you said, [00:05:00] statistically you should be about 82 years old at that time and Right.

[00:05:04] Fonz: So, you know, hopefully God willing, you know. We're gonna be talking about this and some of the things that you might need to defend. What would you say would be some of your most controversial, I guess, takes that you feel would need some defending in 2059?

[00:05:19] Micah: I think the, the most controversial, honestly, would be things outside of education.

[00:05:24] Micah: Like when I talk about the year 2059, I break out four major decades, and 2059 is the last, of course the farthest away. And I propose that there's great potential that we're headed towards a post scarcity, uh, world where everyone has access to what they need. Imagine that everyone on the planet has access to what they need.

[00:05:47] Micah: And the reason I think that will be the hardest to defend is because there's many, many variables that far out. Are outside of education and would therefore impact the education outcome.

[00:05:58] Fonz: Excellent. Well that's [00:06:00] definitely great and yeah, we're definitely gonna get into that a little bit more. But one of the things that also, you know, as going through this and like letting you know like how really nicely laid out this is and it's just like some great bits and I'm just like, it's really hard to put this down, honestly.

[00:06:16] Fonz: You know? 'cause the more read, the more you, you get into it. And then of course you kind of. Bring it into your own relationship and into what you're seeing, you know, in the education space personally too, as well, and it resonates with that. But I wanna ask you about the fusion model for organizational adoption of innovation.

[00:06:35] Fonz: So can you tell us a little bit about that and how that model is developed and why it's crucial for educational transformation?

[00:06:44] Micah: Yeah, well, looking ahead at the future is very difficult and understanding change is, well, change management is perhaps one of the most difficult things for organizations, not just education.

[00:06:55] Micah: So I developed a fusion model by looking at the work of Everett Rogers, who [00:07:00] has an organizational adoption model. Who developed the activity theory and the activity theory says that at each stage, uh, each moment we can look at the intersection of innovation. People, society, our, our rules, our work, our goals.

[00:07:18] Micah: And whenever one of those changes, it impacts the others. And so I use that as a critical lens to say, you know, where are we in deciding in a journey, um, where we're going next, and how do we get to the place that I call the pencil moment? And that's the place of routinizing. And so the pencil moment is the moment where we stop talking about a technology as a thing, and we focus on the practice.

[00:07:42] Micah: So if you imagine a math classroom saying, today we're going to learn math with a pencil, that doesn't really happen. But I would argue when pencils first came out, that was the language, right? You can, you can use your historical imagination of our teaching, our ancestors thinking that way. Well, we've gotten to the point where we fully [00:08:00] adopted, or as part of our routine, the pencil.

[00:08:02] Micah: So I make the argument that we'll get to that point with things like AI as well. Now, once I finished the book, I instantly thought of another analogy that I did not put in the book, and that is what I call the keyboard dilemma. The keyboard is not the best layout. It was designed so that the fingers on a typewriter don't get jumbled up.

[00:08:23] Micah: That's where we got the DY keyboard. That's why the letters are so odd. There's a much better keyboard called a RIC and many others that we don't use because we're so stuck on the old model. So rather than adopting new and better like our pencil moment, we're still stuck in the keyboard dilemma on things like the query keyboard.

[00:08:42] Fonz: Excellent. All right, and so you, that kind of is a nice segue, kind of talking about the pencil moment, but I wanna talk to you about specifically, you also make a distinction between integration and adoption of technology and education. So please, can you elaborate [00:09:00] on why you've really focused on this distinction and how it can change our approach and maybe reframing it when we as educators or maybe somebody in a position that.

[00:09:10] Fonz: To what kind of technology is going to be brought into the classroom?

[00:09:16] Micah: Yeah. The integration is in the fusion model, the initial phase, of, organizational adoption. It's when we are seeing if something fits. Any innovation, a technology, a new practice, a new strategy, does this thing help us?

[00:09:32] Micah: And so we integrate it into existing practice and we watch and we listen and we see is this going to work before we make that decision or not to adopt? And if we decide to adopt in the fusion model, I refer to that as implementation. That's where we start to go down the journey of adopting towards that pencil moment.

[00:09:55] Micah: Excellent. And adoption is, ownership is how I think of it as it's, it's much more [00:10:00] personal than integrating.

[00:10:02] Fonz: Nice. And that actually makes a lot of sense. You know, like you said, and especially that last part that you said, just making it very personal. And I think oftentimes, you know, we confuse the two and just say, oh, this is what we're gonna be adopting.

[00:10:14] Fonz: Rather than thinking, okay, this is the, actually the integration process and working its way until you kind of make it your own. And right now, I mean, I wanna ask you, you know, what can people in a certain role or position, for example, a coordinator for learning or A CTO can do with so many. AI applications out there, I mean, they're overwhelmed.

[00:10:37] Fonz: What steps would you recommend for them to take in order to choose or make the best decision for their district?

[00:10:46] Micah: Well, I highly recommend forming, uh, a committee of, uh, advisors. Not just people who agree with you, but people who in the field, in your community, are respected for their voice. Not just the geeks or innovators like, like you and [00:11:00] me, but also people who are a little slower to adopt, A little bit cautious that wanna think about something.

[00:11:06] Micah: And then in those groups start to propose questions like, let's talk about your personal struggle with these innovations. How do you feel about ai? How are you using it now? Are you using it more than you realize? And then take that personal use approach. And backpedal into, do you think it's going to be continued to have an impact on our lives?

[00:11:29] Micah: And if so, it's our responsibility to start preparing our students for that impact. So I think there's, there's levels of trusted advisors, uh, trusted groups, self-reflection, group reflection, that can inform a better practice, which will have a positive impact on our students.

[00:11:49] Fonz: Excellent. That is a great suggestion.

[00:11:51] Fonz: And I know I've had Dr. Nika McGee also here as well, and I know while she was working in a local school district that was a couple of miles away from me, I [00:12:00] know when this, uh, you know, generative AI tools were coming out. I know that's one of the things that she did was. She gathered some teachers and was working with them, and of course they were just kind of going through everything like what are the positives, what are the negatives of certain platforms?

[00:12:13] Fonz: To be able to advise and say, okay, these would be the best suited for now at this given time that fit these parameters. Obviously data security. Privacy and all of those things. But I wanna ask you, because I know you get to travel a lot or you know, due to your work with Samsung and I know that you have your ear to the ground and I know a lot of educators come, you know, visit with you.

[00:12:36] Fonz: You get to talk to them, you get to learn a little bit about what's going on with them. So I wanna ask you, like right now, I know that we are already, you know, well in, from 2022 to 2025, you know, there's a lot of changes in generative ai. What do you still hear? You know, having your ear to the ground at these conferences or listening to the great speakers, what are still some of the barriers that teachers [00:13:00] or any educator and professional are facing dealing with AI in education?

[00:13:05] Micah: Oh, I think the number one barrier from what I've been hearing and what I see is understanding AI as chat GPT, and that's it. So I'm on chat, GPT and everything I do there is ai. Therefore, anything my students do under the idea of AI is what chat GPT does, and, and that's incredibly inaccurate. Uh, AI does so many things and can amplify so many great practices in the classroom that transcend one singular application.

[00:13:36] Micah: Um, I think a AI is being used in many tech industries and in practice. As a prefix, like we used to use a lowercase e for e paper or a lowercase I in front of, uh, a name to identify us or attach us to an innovation. I feel like AI is the new prefix that people are just throwing around. And as a [00:14:00] seasoned practitioner, I'm more interested in what you do with it and how it amplifies good practice and fits into our existing schema, our existing background of what good teaching looks like.

[00:14:10] Fonz: Oof. Excellent. I really like that. And especially like you meant, like what you said, like putting the small eye in front of something, you know, that like, you know, I mean there's things a lot like iPads, you know, things of that sort, you know. Sure, sure. And so yeah, that's very well said and very well put.

[00:14:25] Fonz: So thank you so much because that definitely, you know, resonates and just really brings that to light. So I really like there what you mentioned and you know, mentioning those barriers. Like you said, you know, therefore, you know, if I'm using Chad GPT, then this is really. All that they're doing. But like you said, you mentioned, you know how it augments.

[00:14:42] Fonz: So going back to that and your classroom experience, and obviously now you know, through Samsung working on a lot of innovative projects and so on. Mm-hmm. What are some of the things that you might suggest or maybe even hear through your book that you suggest as far as being able to take what we're doing now and [00:15:00] augmenting it and augmenting that in the classroom for our students?

[00:15:04] Fonz: What might be some suggestions there? That you might be able to share with our teachers or what to look out for, uh, you know, that instead of just seeing it as chat GPT.

[00:15:14] Micah: Yeah. I think, in chapter one, I actually outline, related to what we were speaking about a few minutes ago, the fusion model.

[00:15:21] Micah: And I show the story of AI adoption in the school and talk about, initiation and implementation. So there is a clear example of what that looks like to help, amplify or unpack. Some of the academic speak I sometimes fall into, I'm doing my best. when it comes to, looking forward to the future, I think there's a profound, value in looking back at our past, you know, looking at the things that we have been unable to do in education and how can innovation, how can new technologies support it?

[00:15:53] Micah: So, for example, I would make the argument. the number one way to teach is one-on-one with [00:16:00] an expert and an apprentice. It's the best way to learn something. They can watch you, they can give you guidance, they can talk to you about it. So your social learning is still part of that story. It's missing one component, and that's another learner that you can collaborate with and commiserate with because you make meaning together with a peer that's missing from that model.

[00:16:21] Micah: But it's still, I think, the best model. So if you add that other learner and you add that expert or that mentor, you start to get farther and farther away from the mentors one-on-one support. And so 150 years ago, we decided let's put 25 to 35 people in a room with one expert. And this will be perfect.

[00:16:41] Micah: It'll be just like our factories and we'll use bells to get people to go in between. So we're pretty hung up on that model. So what I would say for the future is we start to look at AI as an example, is a way to provide one-on-one that also gives us access to that expert who [00:17:00] now humanizes the learning, which is a critical point I hope we come back to.

[00:17:04] Micah: But lets me also have my peers in the room. To commiserate, collaborate, and make meaning of the learning. And so now that trifecta is being perfected in a way that it's never been possible.

[00:17:19] Fonz: I love that and see, and that's great that you mentioned that in the book, because I know you know, that's in chapter one.

[00:17:25] Fonz: Now in chapter two, kind of like that growing aspect. And you outlined these scenarios here in education because you talked a little bit about the 2059, which is that post scarcity scholar. But I wanna talk about here, 'cause you broke it down into four future scenarios, which is the hyperconnected classroom 2029.

[00:17:44] Fonz: The bio integrated learner 2039 and the community learning hub in 2049, and of course the post scarcity scholar. So I wanna ask you, you know, which of these scenarios excites you the most and which might cause [00:18:00] you just a bit of concern, you know, from all of these four that we've described.

[00:18:04] Micah: I'm most excited about the Community Learning hub.

[00:18:08] Micah: I love, environment and space and how it impacts our learning and our thinking, and how when we work together to solve local, problems or generate local solutions, we're having a clear, tangible impact. I love how that has potential, if we frame our mind correctly to inform global impact as well.

[00:18:29] Micah: Something like looking at the United Nations sustainable development goals, access to clean water locally, coming up with a solution locally can inform another locale, another community that gets me the most excited. the one that scares me the most is bio integrated because I view bio integrated as, problematic for us.

[00:18:48] Micah: and I'd like to unpack that a little bit so people understand what I'm saying. If you think about today, there are examples of people who have a medical condition like being quadriplegic or paralysis that [00:19:00] prevents them from using parts of their body. And there's been many highlights in the media of implants that allows them to play video games and to communicate and do things that are, it's super cool.

[00:19:12] Micah: It gets me excited. What doesn't get me excited is what comes next because while something serves as a medical aid, the more that medical aid becomes, used, the more likely it will become part of other people's lives and it will turn into an augmentation of what we can do every day. So now, you know, do I have a chip in the back of my head and I load up the history textbook and I no longer need to talk about it and develop skills around it?

[00:19:40] Micah: 'cause they have the quote unquote knowledge. 'cause we have to be hyper judicious about these technologies in the classroom. I mean, right now we're worried about whether or not students have a phone or a smartwatch. Imagine not knowing how they know what they know or where it came from, or if the source is a good source.

[00:19:59] Micah: That scares me a [00:20:00] bit.

[00:20:01] Fonz: No, and that can definitely be something for sure, and especially like you mentioned, because for me, one of my things has always been, you know, with the use of these tools and you know, as the tools continue to grow and they continue to, you know, be better each and every day, you know, and each and every week there's something else.

[00:20:18] Fonz: But my concern has always been, you know, sort of like what you mentioned is. Even now when teacher using this kind of technology, the generative AI aspect, you know, teachers just seeing that first output as being gospel and just saying, yep, here we go. This is what it gave me. Yeah, right. Here we go.

[00:20:34] Fonz: This is what I'm gonna do. And really, you know, losing out, like you mentioned, we still need to know that knowledge. We still need to be that subject matter expert to be able to dissect, to decipher, to make sure that this is something that is. That that is good enough content for not only our students, but that we're putting out there for them in the education space.

[00:20:54] Fonz: And like you mentioned with something like that, it's like, well, you know the history book. Well, whose history [00:21:00] is it? You know, where is this coming from? And so yeah, those are the main concerns there especially. So I definitely agree with you on that and, but you know, we'll see how that plays out and hopefully, you know, like I said, what I love though, coming back to the, the learning hub.

[00:21:15] Fonz: For me, for myself being part of, you know, Google Innovators Group and of course just getting to network with so many people. Yeah. It's just being able to bring ideas together in that human aspect. And like you said, being able to solve something that can later lead to something else, that can later lead to even a greater project, and then all of a sudden that continues to grow.

[00:21:36] Fonz: But it's a hub of knowledge that is. Everybody put together, uh, you know, and just being connected and it makes a huge difference. And I think that that's something that would be very beneficial, you know, as, as educators too, being able to find that hub or being able to find those people that you can connect with to continue to grow and grow and practice as well.

[00:21:55] Fonz: Which brings me to that next piece, you know, that human element piece, [00:22:00] which I do wanna talk to you about because you know, here. You also mentioned how talking to teachers, letting them know it says you cannot be replaced, you know? So I wanna ask you here, you know, what prompted you to really go in deep with them?

[00:22:16] Fonz: Because I know you mentioned an ecological concept with this that is tied together. So tell me a little bit more about that, because I know that there are a lot of people out there that always say, well, no, teachers will never be replaced. But there's other people that'll say, yeah, you know, ai, I mean. We eventually, that's what it's gonna come to.

[00:22:34] Fonz: You know, it's gonna replace the teacher. Why would we need classrooms? So tell me a little bit about that and that importance of that human element. Mm-hmm.

[00:22:43] Micah: Yeah. And in fact, just last week, bill Gates said that doctors and teachers will be replaced. Um, that scares me because as a classroom teacher, I understand that human empathy and unpacking the human experience as messy as that unpacking is.

[00:22:59] Micah: Is [00:23:00] critical to student learning because it's a form of modeling in agency that they can't otherwise get from a non-human interface, or shouldn't I should say get from a non-human interface. You know, I talked about trophic cascade in the book and the story of the wolves in Yellowstone and how rivers change direction as the wolves became extinct and as the wolves were brought back in the rivers, courses got more, um, steadfast, and it's because.

[00:23:28] Micah: Without the wolves. you have more deer. When you have more deer. They're eating more, uh, shrubbery on the side of rivers, which is causing the banks to get looser, which is causing the rivers to, uh, change everything. And when you start to reintroduce the deer, the, the ecosystem is, is in a state of better balance.

[00:23:45] Micah: And when we start to pull away teachers, I don't wanna, I hate to think of teachers as wolves. That's not the point. we started to pull away teachers. And make less teachers and perhaps more students, um, our, our river banks are gonna fall apart and if our river banks are [00:24:00] falling apart, we become somewhat directionless.

[00:24:03] Micah: and that metaphor, I think a lot about it. I haven't quite worked my brain through it, I did in the book to a degree, but it's something I continue to chew on, to meditate on because I think it's really powerful and it's something also reinforced in the activity theory that model a triangle you'll find in the book.

[00:24:19] Micah: When you adjust one thing, it impacts many more than just your goal. It impacts the innovation. It impacts your society. It impacts the rules by which you operate. It impacts other people. we just have to be slow and cautious. It's one of the good things about education as we tend to be slow to change, and in some cases that's a good thing because it does help us to make sure that we're being very cautious about how what we do impacts children.

[00:24:47] Micah: Excellent.

[00:24:47] Fonz: Before I get to my next question, 'cause it was a nice segue into you, you know, talking about access to agency, but right now that you just mentioned that as far as being kind of slow and cautious, I would just wanna [00:25:00] ask your thoughts because I know that you're out there at conferences and you see a myriad of speakers that are out there on stage or presenting.

[00:25:09] Fonz: And one of the things too is that there's always a one side that will always be like, oh. If you're not using this right now, you are hurting your kids. If you're not doing this right now, forget it. They're done in the future. If you're not using this, and it's almost just this kind of fear that they're putting in that now a teacher's like, well, I better use it and I better hop on, even though I'm not sure.

[00:25:32] Fonz: What it's gonna do or how it's gonna work. But I don't wanna ruin my kids' futures in, in that sense. So I wanna ask what your thoughts are on that. You know, you know, and personally you, how you feel? Like, are you more like just kind of like you said, slow and steady, you know, very just cautious, cautious advocate, I would say, you know, that's something that I call myself.

[00:25:51] Fonz: I try not to be too fast. 'cause sometimes I can get overly excited. But what are your thoughts on that mindset of, hey, if you're [00:26:00] not using it right now with your fifth graders, forget it. They're done.

[00:26:04] Micah: Yeah. one thing I learned joining the corporate world is that unfortunately, fear, uncertainty, and doubt sell.

[00:26:13] Micah: And it's one thing that we have to be cautious about as speakers is that we're not selling fear, uncertainty, and doubt in the classroom. We want to have stability. Access and, and make sure things are equitable for our students and, and being a little slower is important. I will say in all frankness, as a young teacher, if I saw something cool and I thought my kids would get a kick out of it, I would dive right in with two feet, you know, head for it.

[00:26:40] Micah: It probably wasn't the best strategy and practice I found myself as I got older, taking a step back looking at them. 'cause it's not about me, including my classroom design, my environment, it's about them. How are they using it? How is it benefiting them in the short term, and how is it benefiting them in the long term?

[00:26:58] Micah: And how can I, as an [00:27:00] educator, be more transparent? And I, that's what I call access to agency. How can I let them see me struggle? You know, the tv, the projector goes down, the bulb's blown. What do I do? Put your heads down while I fix this. No, let, watch, you're starting a lesson. We're gonna try something new.

[00:27:16] Micah: Not sure how it's gonna go. Let's try it together. I do think one thing that's very prevalent in ed tech specifically is it's very responsive. This just came out. Let's try it. Guilty. This just came out. You gotta use it. It's a new thing. Gotta use this. Gotta use that.

[00:27:34] Micah: Gotta hope with 2059. I challenge people to be less responsive and more prepared in thinking about. Where this could all go, how this could all shake out so that we start to prepare ourselves with better policy and better infrastructure to provide more access for students. Nice.

[00:27:56] Fonz: Excellent. I definitely agree with that and I hope it just, even right now, [00:28:00] 2025, we can just get into that right now too as well because you know, like you said, it's, you see the hype and the buildup and I think a lot of teachers, and, and I always quote, uh, a great guest that I had, Renee Dawson, you've got your speedboats, you've got your tugboats, and you've got your anchors.

[00:28:16] Fonz: One thing that I love that you mentioned, uh, Micah, is the way that you kind of stand back and observe where before the tech was about me, I what I wanted to do, what I wanted to share. Yeah. As opposed to, like you mentioned that later on in my career, I was like, no, no. This is about you and I. Seeing how the students let them lead with the tech and let's see how they use it.

[00:28:39] Fonz: Let's see how it benefits them and how it helps them enhance, augment the, or redefine assignments or their submissions and their learning in that aspect. So that's something that I really love that you mentioned there, that sometimes as a teacher, it's okay to step back and obviously too, it's okay to not know everything.

[00:28:57] Fonz: Sometimes, you know, feel [00:29:00] vulnerable and allow students to be able to see that too as well, because that also helps them. Which kind of brings me to that concept of access to agency, like you mentioned that it's something that's critical to learners. Can you just dive in deep a little bit more into how this can help educators also and how we can foster agency for our students?

[00:29:21] Micah: Yeah. And in the book, I talk a little bit about my dad and, how my dad and I would work on cars together, largely out of necessity growing up. but I wouldn't say that as a result of that, I learned how to fix a car because I was the guy handing all the tools to my dad. what I learned is that it can be done.

[00:29:39] Micah: And so his agency to repair a vehicle, I had access to it. I got to see it, I got to watch it. I got to experience. Him troubleshoot him, struggle his sticktuitiveness. And providing that to students is really kind of cool to allow them to hear you talk about, [00:30:00] I'm struggling with this. I was using Chat GT the other day and I wrote this paper with it, and I didn't like the way it came out 'cause it wasn't my voice struggling out loud and talking about it and that kind of prompt and that kind of narrative.

[00:30:15] Micah: I think is really gonna help students prepare them for their future, which is so vastly different than our past.

[00:30:22] Fonz: Oh, I love that. And I love that example that you said, you know, allowing them to see that, like for example, you learned from your dad, you had that experience and like, you know, going back to that classroom experience, you know, I know that you, and there's nothing wrong, there's several d.

[00:30:36] Fonz: Teaching styles out there. Mm-hmm. Some people they, they do great lectures and they're up at the front the whole time, but they're engaging. Mm-hmm. There's others that kind of stand back and say, okay, students, how about you? Like let's flip the learning and so on. But I think that's so important, like you mentioned, just for them to be able to.

[00:30:52] Fonz: Still have that productive struggle. You still being there and you still leaving. An example, like I said, vulnerability for, at least in my experience when I was in the [00:31:00] classroom, when the student saw me like, oh man, this lesson didn't turn out the way that I wanted it to turn out but we were able to improvise, adapt, and overcome, and that kind of led us into.

[00:31:10] Fonz: Well, we couldn't quite get this done, but this leads us into this next concept, so let's start with that and then we can come back and revisit this. But they were able to see that, and I think that's something that is very important and I love that, that you mentioned this because I think sometimes we can get lost so much with the technology because it's just.

[00:31:29] Fonz: Giving them more, more and more as far as the tech is concerned and not really listening to like, do they really need this? Or how are they using it? And then of course as a teacher, making those adjustments as needed. So I think that's fantastic. Now let's talk a little bit here. I wanna talk about practical implementation because I know your book, it definitely has a lot of things, but I don't want my listeners.

[00:31:53] Fonz: To leave the episode with getting some practical tips here as well. So I wanna ask you, you know, as you discuss different [00:32:00] stakeholders, we always talk about policymakers, administrators, educators, students, parents, and so on. They all have different roles in shaping the future of education.

[00:32:09] Fonz: So I wanna ask you in at this time, which group do you think faces the greatest challenges in adapting to these changes as far as ai.

[00:32:20] Micah: Oh, that's a great question because the reality of how it impacts a classroom teacher trying to understand how to use it, how do you know who's writing the paper anymore?

[00:32:30] Micah: It's not as simple as an authenticity, poll off of Google. It's nothing like that anymore. it's more like, you know, how can we perhaps adjust strategy, but those are with adults who have that skillset, so I'm worried about that. Also for students, how do they make meaning of this new world?

[00:32:54] Micah: that to me is the scariest part. 'cause it's under the radar more, you know, it's kind of like studies on [00:33:00] screen time. You know, we study screen time. Adults are worried about it. We're putting away, but are we watching every kid to see how long they're on the screen and do we really know its impact?

[00:33:08] Micah: I think I'm being a little bit unclear 'cause this is a really good question, so I really wanna think about it Visibly, I would say I'm gonna see a teacher struggle to figure out how to use AI in the classroom, but in terms of depth, I'm not gonna see the struggle inside a student's head, which is more dangerous when you can't see it.

[00:33:25] Micah: That's the part that scares me the most.

[00:33:27] Fonz: Does that make sense? Yes. No, absolutely, absolutely makes sense. I'm with you on that 1000%. Yeah, you're absolutely right. Now. So that's that question. So now for some practicality here, for our listeners that are CTOs that are directors of technology, you know, just classroom teachers that are in there, there with the students.

[00:33:47] Fonz: I wanna ask you for those that are listening, uh. Can you describe what your first recommendations would be? The first three steps? Mm-hmm. Just for maybe somebody who has, who is, just [00:34:00] needs to make that decision but doesn't know where to start 'cause they're frozen. With so much, with your experience, what would you recommend be their first three steps to be able to dive in?

[00:34:10] Micah: the first step is to try using this new technology or new innovation yourself to solve a personal task. That's the first thing. Nothing to do with school. I'm at home. I've gotta fix something. Try using AI instead of searching for a YouTube video about what I'm trying to fix. Just try it. I think that's a fantastic first step.

[00:34:35] Micah: I think we both probably learned a lot of really cool tech by using it personally, not within a classroom structure. I think it's really important to step away from that, perhaps a step two. And say, how would this problem have been solved? if I hadn't used this tech. I personally tried to solve a piece of code.

[00:34:55] Micah: I was on blue sky trying to look at how Blue Sky can connect to Google sheets for an [00:35:00] automation, how I can judiciously and cautiously use a bot. Trying to figure that out. And I was working in this code for like three days and I got on chat GPT. Actually it was Claude. I was using Claude and Props Claude at the time.

[00:35:14] Micah: I dropped it into Claude and said, I can't figure out why this link won't connect, and it figured it out in 30 seconds. Done. So I wasted three days, 30 seconds. The problem is solved. My step two is to take a step back. What's the most valuable thing its time? if time's that valuable, then, if I can have something solve my time personally, then I start to think about my step three.

[00:35:41] Micah: And after that point of self-reflection, I then start to think about, okay, what's a way I can try this in my classroom? That's kind of a safe thing. it's not a big assessment. Maybe it's just a little formative check, not a summative check. And how can I use this formative trick with my students [00:36:00] and see how this new tech impacts their understanding?

[00:36:04] Micah: And I think that's a really conservative, cautious three steps.

[00:36:08] Fonz: I love it. Excellent. Now that brings me to some questions here that I wanna ask you as far as your personal reflections as you went about writing your book and doing your research here on 2059.

[00:36:20] Fonz: So, I wanna ask you, because as both your experience as an educator, and of course now the Director of Education Solutions at Samsung, I wanna ask you how your professional journey has influenced your vision of education's future.

[00:36:36] Micah: my professional journey, as a subject matter expert in education, at least in my niche, in my middle school world for a couple of decades, has informed, a big capital, WHY in my head when it comes to tech.

[00:36:50] Micah: Why would I use this? Why does it matter? And leading with a y instead of a, what I think is critical. And I've been fortunate enough to have been able to inform in [00:37:00] my professional life. product creation, product development. From that perspective, how is it actually gonna help? So you think of like a large interactive display.

[00:37:10] Micah: I've been able to say, you don't just put the latest AI chat bot up there and assume that it's going to work because if you put a chat bot up there, the educator's gonna turn around and have their back to their students and they're going to be talking to an AI chat bot. In a way that does not amplify good instructional practice based on presence and awareness of the classroom.

[00:37:33] Micah: So that's a micro example of leading with the why based on what we've done as educators.

[00:37:39] Fonz: Oof. Love it. And the next question I want to ask you, obviously now, if you could ensure one idea from your book becomes Reality in education systems worldwide, which would it be and why?

[00:37:54] Micah: Oh man. the biggest takeaway I want from the book, if I was to pick one, I've got a bunch, but if I was [00:38:00] to pick one, would be to inspire people in education, involved in education, adjacent to education, which is the entire planet, to start thinking about the future instead of responding to right now, let's think about, okay, if we do these next three things, where does this go?

[00:38:18] Micah: What's down the road in 10 years, 20 years? 30 years and 35 years.

[00:38:25] Fonz: Nice. Excellent. I love it. All right, well, before we wrap up and we hit our final last three questions, I've got, uh, a couple of closing questions here. I think we still have a little bit of time, but I wanna ask you, you know, now your book is.

[00:38:39] Fonz: a call to action for everybody, like you just mentioned, that is evolved in education or even those that would be inspired that are outside of education as well. But I wanna ask you, what do you hope that the readers will do differently after engaging with 2059?

[00:38:57] Micah: Uh, I would hope that an educator would be [00:39:00] inspired to know that you have not been doing it wrong your whole career.

[00:39:05] Micah: And the way we position ourselves in the classroom, our engagements with our students are critical moving forward. And so when we bring in new technology, please rest on what we know to be true for benefiting children through the learning journey, that that's one of the big things.

[00:39:24] Micah: But then I would also say maybe we need to think differently about what our students will have to do in the future. The age of spending 40 years in one corporate organization has changed. So there's several things our students are gonna have to do. One is learn how to upskill, learn new job skills.

[00:39:48] Micah: They're going to have to do that more than you and I ever did. Our students are gonna have to upskill more. So teaching 'em about upskilling, they're going to have to understand how to use human intuition. If that was [00:40:00] done today, it would be, I generated this X, Y, Z thing, letter, perhaps with ai, but man, that doesn't sound like a human would speak.

[00:40:08] Micah: That's using your human intuition. That's gonna be critical. It's gonna be critical to understand how to collaborate, how to be an editor, how to work with this program. How do I say, Hey, this code isn't working. Fix it and it makes it fix. You're like, no, that's not it. Fix it again and keep speaking with this technology.

[00:40:28] Micah: Then also being really cautious about humans in space and where we are in coordination with each other. You know, I, I redesigned, uh, or I used, excuse me, uh, one AI engine with, uh, a map. I put in a map of Paris and I said, redesign Paris to be a perfect city. And it changed the flow of the send to be a straight line.

[00:40:51] Micah: It changed the streets to be a straight X and it removed many landmarks, primarily churches. That scared me to death. [00:41:00] So being cautious about societal systems and perhaps embracing some of that messiness that is to be human is what I hope people will be encouraged to do. Whew.

[00:41:11] Fonz: Excellent.

[00:41:12] Fonz: That's great that I love it. Thank you so much Micah. And I guess that'll bring me to kind of my last question that I wanna ask. So Micah, the year is 2059 and guess what? You and I are on my ed tech life and this will probably be show. I don't know, maybe 15, 29. And so you and I are here, you know, in our eighties.

[00:41:35] Fonz: So I wanna ask you, what would you hope to see from your book and say, wow, you know, that this is what everybody's talking about, that I wrote 35 years ago. What would be the one thing that you would hope people are talking about at that time?

[00:41:53] Micah: I, I would hope that, uh, the book causes a groundswell of conversation.

[00:41:57] Micah: not about whether or not Micah was right, [00:42:00] but a conversation about the future and about, Hey, we've gotta think change. We don't like change. We like to ignore change. Change is gross and ugly and nobody wants to do that. But I would hope I encourage people to think about change, not because it impacts us right now, but because of how it might impact our children's children and beyond.

[00:42:21] Fonz: Excellent. Thank you Micah, and that's wonderful. And hopefully 2059. I'll make sure and send that invite and that way we can definitely have this conversation, my friend, because it would be wonderful to just see how this has evolved, where we're headed. And of course, just because of the work of you and so many others that are very innovative and.

[00:42:41] Fonz: Are out there, just really just bringing some great thoughts and ideas to, like you mentioned, have these conversations to be able to make some changes in the positive way. And I think that that's something great. And I applaud you, Micah, because like I said, from the time that I first met you.

[00:42:57] Fonz: You've always been so kind to me, genuine, [00:43:00] authentic, and even in the conversations that we have, every once in a while we'll rerun into each other and I get to be able to amplify projects like this that you get to do. It's been an amazing experience and I continue to learn from you each and every day.

[00:43:13] Fonz: So thank you so much for the friendship. Thank you so much for being here on the podcast and just thank you so much for being an inspiration. I really appreciate you, Micah.

[00:43:22] Micah: The feeling is mutual, my friend. Uh, always a pleasure to speak with you. I look for you when I'm in Texas and it's always great to find a friendly face and a collaborator, so thank you.

[00:43:32] Fonz: Absolutely. Thank you, Micah. But before we wrap up, we've got the last three questions that we always end the show with. So hopefully you are ready to go here, Micah. Mm-hmm. as we know every superhero has a pain point or a weakness, and we know that.

[00:43:44] Fonz: Superman. That kryptonite was something that just weakened him. And I wanna ask you, in the current state of education, what would you say is your current edu kryptonite?

[00:43:57] Micah: Oh, it's time. It's absolutely [00:44:00] time. Not enough hours in the day.

[00:44:03] Fonz: There you go. That's good. That works out well.

[00:44:05] Fonz: 'cause I think you and I are in the same boat right now by Fred. All right, so here we go. Question number two. If you could have a billboard with anything on it, what would it be and why?

[00:44:16] Micah: I would, honestly, as vain as it sounds, I'd put the book cover on it, 2059, the Future of Education, just to get people talking about it.

[00:44:25] Fonz: Love it. Excellent. I can definitely see that. That's a great billboard. And then of course, make sure you have the QR code, sending them to that Amazon link for sure. That'd be fantastic. All right. And the last question, my friend, is if you could trade places with anyone, Or a single day, who would that be and why?

[00:44:44] Micah: Oh, oh, oh. I have to vindicate someone. I would switch with Bill Gates, um, to get to the point in your life. Where you have the, the time and the wherewithal to benefit humanity and to be thinking about problems that are global and how you might help people, [00:45:00] I think that would be really cool.

[00:45:01] Micah: And I'd like to spend a day looking into how I might approach that and having, uh, access to, to tools that would help me to benefit other people. I think that'd be cool to be Bill Gates for the day.

[00:45:14] Fonz: Excellent. Well, great answers my friend. I appreciate you. Thank you so much again for joining me and taking a little part of your day to spend it with me and get to talk about your new project.

[00:45:24] Fonz: So everybody again, 2059. The Future of Education. Yes, sir.

[00:45:29] Micah: I forgot to mention, uh, I added the book to my website so your listeners can get it for 20% off. If they go to the website, there's a little popup that flashes up. Just go ahead and enter the email and they'll have access to a discount on the book.

[00:45:43] Fonz: Perfect. Excellent. We will definitely link your website to the show notes. Thank you. That way everybody can go ahead and visit your website and they can go ahead and get the book. Thank you Micah, again for being an amazing guest. Thank you for this great conversation and for all our listeners. Thank you as always for all of your support.

[00:45:58] Fonz: We appreciate all the likes. The [00:46:00] shares, the follows. And if you haven't followed us yet on social media, please make sure you follow us at My EdTech Live and make sure that you jump over to our YouTube channel, subscribe, give us a thumbs up. We definitely appreciate that as that goes a long way for us to make sure that our content continues to get dispersed.

[00:46:16] Fonz: And again, I definitely wanna thank all our sponsors. Thank you so much to Book Creator. Thank you so much, yellow Dig and edu aid for sponsoring our show and believing in our mission. And that we get the opportunity to bring you some amazing guests and amazing conversations like we have today. So thank you for your support and my friends.

[00:46:34] Fonz: Until next time, don't forget, stay techie.[00:47:00]