Episode 307: Dagan Bernstein

Episode 307: AI in Education: Disruption, Challenges, and Opportunities

[00:00:30] Fonz: Hello everybody, and welcome to another great episode of My EdTech Life. Thank you so much for joining us on this wonderful day, wherever it is you're joining us from around the world.

[00:00:39] Fonz: I thank you, as always, for all of your support. We appreciate all the likes, shares, and follows. Thank you so much for engaging with our content. As you know, we do what we do for you to bring you amazing conversations and guests, like today. So I am really excited to welcome to the show... well, before I say his name, I've been a long-time follower.

[00:01:01] Fonz: He is doing some amazing things. He's got a wonderful newsletter, and after today, please make sure you follow him on LinkedIn and all socials. Make sure you subscribe to his Substack because he's got some great stuff. I would love to welcome to the show, Dagan Berenstein. Dagan, how are you?

[00:01:19] Dagan: Aloha, my cocoa. I'm doing great, Fonz. Thanks for that introduction. Super stoked to be here and talk.

[00:01:25] Fonz: Well, I'm excited. As you know, audience members, if you listened to Dagan's intro, he's joining us from the wonderful state of Hawaii. And they are, how many hours? Is it six hours behind here?

[00:01:38] Dagan: Well, four hours behind central time and five hours behind East Coast time right now. We don't change our clocks, but that will change once spring comes, and we'll be six hours behind the East Coast.

[00:01:47] Fonz: There you go. So I know that we've tried to make an episode happen a couple of months ago, but just due to the timing, obviously, the time zones, I should say. But now that we're on holiday break, we definitely made it happen. So I'm excited to have you here, Dagan. And for our audience members who may not be familiar with your work yet and the wonderful things you're doing, can you give us a little brief introduction and tell us your context in the education space?

[00:02:16] Dagan: For sure. Well, as you mentioned, not only am I based in Hawaii, but I'm very blessed to have been raised here. I'm located on Hawaii Island, which is sometimes called the Big Island, in a little town called Waimea, up on the north side of the island, up in the mountains.

[00:02:33] Dagan: A lot of people picture beaches and palm trees, but if I look outside my window, I see green hills and a cool breeze blowing through the mountains. It's very beautiful, and I'm very blessed to call this home. My main job is as the director of a capstone project program at the K-8 campus of a K-12 independent school here in Waimea. So every student at our school in grades five through eight completes a year-long independent project that is connected to our school's Malama Kaiolu Community Sustainability Plan.

[00:02:55] Dagan: I oversee about 60 students and about eight faculty members in this program and support these students as they transition out of elementary into middle school, and out of middle school into high school. We do have a separate 9-12 campus that's mixed day boarding, and there's a separate capstone director for the senior projects, which are a graduation requirement here at our school. So that's kind of my main job. I'm also an eighth-grade advisor and work with a cohort of 10 students.

[00:03:22] Dagan: Of course, as educators, we have lives outside the classroom. Two things I do outside the classroom are that I was just recently announced as president-elect for the Hawaii chapter of ISTE, which I'm really excited about. I'm also the digital content manager for the National Capstone Consortium, which is a small community of practice operating under an educational nonprofit to support capstone education across the country.

[00:04:04] Dagan: So those are my main things in education. And of course, my little side gig is my passion project: my weekly newsletter, where I get to geek out on blockchain and education.

[00:04:32] Fonz: Well, that's great. You've definitely got my interest piqued. I know that a couple of months ago, I had a guest who also talked a lot about capstone projects. I think that's something that, at least in my area, in Texas, I don't hear much about — students completing year-long capstone projects. But I think it's great and phenomenal because you're building up these skills throughout the year, and you're tying the learning into a final project. Then at the end, you're presenting a wonderful portfolio and presentation, which is fantastic.

[00:05:06] Fonz: So, it's something that is amazing. And you said you do it for all grade levels, right? Fifth, eighth, and high school?

[00:05:25] Dagan: Yes, that's correct.

[00:05:27] Fonz: Can you tell us a bit more about how it's tied to the community? You mentioned that earlier.

[00:05:39] Dagan: Yes. Our school has a sustainability plan that we launched four or five years ago. It's called Malama Kaiolu. "Malama" is to care for, and "Kaiolu" is your community. This was a school-wide sustainability initiative tied to not only resource and energy sustainability but also to the Hawaiian worldview, focusing on how we sustain our communities and regenerate ourselves.

[00:06:13] Dagan: There are four specific practices built into this community sustainability plan: lokahi (harmony), haina (storytelling), pilina (connectedness), and kuleana (responsibility). These four practices make up the community sustainability practices and mindsets.

[00:06:37] Dagan: About three or four years ago, the other capstone director and I were at a crossroads with the program. We had been running it for about six or seven years, and we had just graduated our first senior class that had completed capstone projects in fifth, eighth, and twelfth grade. We were ready to define and create some parameters around what capstone is at our school, and that's when it clicked to tie it to this Malama Kaiolu sustainability plan.

[00:07:13] Dagan: We wanted the students to think about community. What does community mean? It could be your neighborhood, your town, your school, Hawaii, or even global communities. Tying capstone to this sustainability plan rooted the students in intentionality when coming up with their project plans. It also gave teachers some guardrails to guide the students and what project proposals could be approved.

[00:07:39] Dagan: It allowed the program to have clearly defined goals and outcomes, linked to a significant school initiative.

Certainly! Here is the continuation of the transcript with grammatical corrections:

[00:07:51] Fonz: Wow, that sounds amazing. It's such a robust program, and I love how it ties together with those four segments. It actually reminds me of the ISTE certification — the idea of, "Are you going to be the leader? Are you going to be the connector?" And working towards that vision, putting together a portfolio, and coming up with a strategy. It's such a bigger vision in mind, and I think that's fantastic — even doing it in fifth grade, eighth grade, and as a graduation requirement. Those students are leaving with not only practice but also critical thinking, collaboration, and communication skills. I mean, you're hitting so many ways of learning, and that’s just fantastic.

[00:08:39] Dagan: Yeah, it’s a great model for schools. When I first connected with the National Capstone Consortium in 2017, we sent a group of teachers as we were piloting and defining our program. I connected with educators from across the country and learned about the different capstone models and how schools deploy capstone depending on their values or district goals.

[00:09:13] Dagan: Now, when I guide and consult other schools or districts on capstone, I always start by asking, "What’s your school or district’s mission? What’s your portrait of a graduate, or what are your defining characteristics?" I can’t come and say, "Capstone has to be this" because for us, tying it to a community sustainability plan worked so well, but for other schools, it might be STEM-based or research-based. Some schools focus on public speaking with culminating 20-minute TED talks, while others emphasize research papers. There’s no one right way to do it.

[00:10:01] Dagan: But I think it’s a great way for schools to get authentic manifestations of what they’re trying to do. It’s a way to show how students are independently applying what they’ve learned, whether that’s communication, collaboration, or creativity. Let’s give them some choice! If a student wants to do a podcast about saving the oceans, let them. If they want to create a documentary about joining the soccer team, let them. There’s so much room for creativity with these projects.

[00:10:41] Dagan: These authentic artifacts are a great opportunity for technology, or sometimes something as simple as a student building skateboard ramps for an afterschool club. The possibilities for what these artifacts can look like are endless.

[00:11:07] Fonz: That’s fantastic! And one thing you said really resonates with me: it’s project-based learning, but with the use of technology, as you mentioned. In the last episode or two episodes ago with Bonnie Nieves, she talked about amplifying student voice. That’s something I think we don't hear enough about in classrooms. It’s crucial to have discourse, think-pair-share, and really hear each other's ideas. I think that’s beneficial for education.

[00:11:42] Fonz: What your students are doing through these projects really harnesses their voice. They get to figure out which tools they’re most comfortable with. At the end of it, they get this authentic manifestation of their learning, and I think that’s amazing.

[00:12:03] Fonz: Wow. That’s wonderful. Well, let’s shift gears a little bit and talk about technology. I know you and I are kind of in the middle when it comes to being critical of some of the technology out there. We want to make sure it's safe for students and that it’s not a crutch for them. We’re talking about generative AI in education. Before we dive deeper into what you’re experiencing in Hawaii and the schools and districts you're working with, I want to ask: What were your initial thoughts when ChatGPT was announced in November of 2022? Did you dive in right away, or were you more of a "wait and see" person? Now that we've seen how it's impacting the education space, what are your thoughts?

[00:13:09] Fonz: I know that’s a loaded question, but let’s talk about it.

[00:13:23] Dagan: Yeah, totally. Let’s talk about it. First off, I’m always on the bleeding edge. Any new technology, I’m grabbing it, using it, testing it, playing with it. With ChatGPT, I remember playing with the early models — 1, 2, 3. This goes back a little further for me because I originally studied linguistics. I have a degree in linguistics from the University of Oregon, so I had exposure and knowledge of artificial intelligence and language model systems. This technology isn’t very old, but we can trace it back to the 50s and 60s, with early work in predictive text.

[00:14:09] Dagan: I’ll never forget a professor I had back in college in the late 90s. We were talking about predictive text and how the system could predict the next word based on language structure. I remember asking, "Isn’t this technology going to lead to robots that can talk?" He adamantly said, "No, language is too complex. There’s no way a robot can replicate human language." And I was like, "Hmm, interesting."

[00:14:46] Dagan: That planted a seed in my head. If he was that sure it wasn’t possible, it must be. Fast forward 20 years, and here we are with this technology emerging. My immediate reaction to ChatGPT was that it can do so many things that outdated models of learning ask students to do. Whether it's generating paragraphs of text or solving mathematical problems, this tool could do it faster and, sometimes, better. The simplicity and accessibility were huge selling points for me.

[00:16:05] Dagan: I used AI tools like Photomath in my classroom when I was teaching algebra, and I showed students how to use it. It was part of the learning progression. The beauty of ChatGPT, though, is that it’s so intuitive. Here’s a text box — we’ve all been using Google for years. You type in a query, and it returns text. Some people initially used it to create poems, and while fun, I could see its potential for much more.

[00:16:30] Dagan: But it also raised questions for me: How will we, as educators, react to this technology? Education systems are incredibly complex. I don’t think one technology tool will change everything. We’ve seen this before, from desktop computers in the 70s to laptops, mobile phones, iPads — all of them were supposed to disrupt education. And here we are, repeating the same hype.

[00:17:34] Dagan: The technology is here. It’s in schools. Every district is using some form of AI, whether they realize it or not. But the question remains: How are we going to use it effectively? It’s overwhelming, and some teachers are simply being asked to "learn this new tool" without being given the proper time, support, or training to fully integrate it into their teaching.

[00:19:52] Fonz: Yes, absolutely. You’ve hit the nail on the head about disruption. It’s the same thing we heard with iPads — “one-to-one devices will change everything!” But I haven’t seen much change in state test scores. When it comes to personalized learning, the algorithms can give students more practice where they’re struggling, but it doesn’t address the root of the problem. It’s frustrating.

[00:21:57] Fonz: There are companies that promise big results, but when you ask for data to back it up, you don’t get a response. The thing is, those tools are often more accessible to wealthy schools, and not all districts have the budget for them. It’s creating an equity issue.

[00:22:23] Fonz: So, Dagan, my next question is a bit loaded. If you could reimagine education with AI as a central component, what would that look like for you? What would be the key things you’d want to see?

[00:34:03] Dagan: Great question. First, we need to back up. We can’t just start with the tool. It’s like grabbing a hammer and starting to hit things. The real work begins with teaching and learning. The more AI becomes prevalent, the more we need to focus on effective pedagogy that supports deep, meaningful learning.

[00:34:51] Dagan: We’re in danger of leaning into more automative, fact-based learning. That’s problematic. The key is real, hands-on learning. Students should be doing real things — creating, thinking critically, engaging in meaningful work. When they hit obstacles, AI can be a great collaborator, helping them think through challenges.

[00:35:17] Dagan: AI should make students work harder, not easier. When I use AI, I’m not just asking it for answers. I’m prompting it, following up with more questions, diving deeper. That’s the kind of hard work AI should be supporting.

[00:36:28] Dagan: So, if I were to reimagine education, it starts with deep, meaningful learning and thoughtful pedagogy. If we can use AI to support that, great, but if not, we should leave it out. Otherwise, we’re just creating more surface-level learning experiences.

Certainly! Here is the continuation of the remaining transcript with grammatical corrections:

[00:39:29] Fonz: I like that approach because I think oftentimes now what we’re seeing is the tool comes first, and the teaching and the art of engagement aren’t there anymore. As you mentioned, it’s the art of teaching, the discourse, the back-and-forth. I recently had a conversation with Eirik Berre from Curipod, and he said, "All these platforms focusing on individualized learning — it feels like they came from COVID, when students had to work individually. But now, who’s giving them feedback? How are teachers keeping in touch with so many students, offering that immediate feedback where they can stop and readdress misconceptions?"

[00:40:10] Fonz: A lot of apps don’t allow students to have discourse or discussions, to work with one another, amplify their voices. Teachers need to be the learning engineers who facilitate instruction. Everyone should participate, but it seems like the focus is more on the tool rather than the art of teaching and engagement. I agree with you — focus on the teaching first, and then bring in the tool when it fits. Sometimes, just color pencils and crayons can do magic in the learning process too. Keeping it simple and streamlined is often the key.

[00:41:02] Fonz: Keeping it simple, that’s what it’s all about. Well, Dagan, before we wrap up, and I ask the last three questions, please tell us a little about your newsletter and where educators, or anyone interested in the topic, can find it. How often do you produce it?

[00:41:25] Dagan: As I mentioned, my geeky technology passions led me to blockchain around 2015-2016, and it actually came from my life as a musician. I first learned about blockchain when artists were encoding digital files with the technology, and that sparked my curiosity. Fast forward to 2022, I connected with folks from the Ed3 Dow, who were building a Web3-based educator community to explore Web3 and blockchain.

[00:42:14] Dagan: I started immersing myself in this world, and I had the idea to start a newsletter. My main goal was to force myself to learn new things every week, so I began publishing it. The first issue was just a collection of resources I found on blockchain in education, Web3, the metaverse, AI — that ecosystem. And I called it Ed3 Weekly.

[00:43:06] Dagan: Now, I’ve published almost 140 issues, and you can find it on Substack at Ed3 Weekly or visit the website at ed3weekly.xyz. I also cross-post it on X and Instagram under @ed3weekly and on my personal LinkedIn profile. Every week, I post a deep dive into a topic like the future of work or the future of learning, focusing on resources that are meaningful for educators. There’s a lot of noise out there, especially in the crypto space, but I try to find the most relevant resources for educators to keep the conversation going.

[00:43:50] Dagan: I encourage everyone to subscribe if you’re Web3 curious or tech curious, and we’ll keep the conversation going. I think the convergence of AI and Web3 in the next 10 years will be huge, so it's important that educators stay at least peripherally knowledgeable about these technologies.

[00:45:06] Fonz: Yes, absolutely. That’s an incredible resource, Dagan. Thanks so much for sharing. Definitely check out Dagan’s newsletter, everyone. It’s a great way to keep up with the rapidly changing landscape and be informed on key emerging technologies in education.

[00:45:27] Fonz: Now, let’s wrap up with the last three questions. These are always some of my favorite parts of the show. Ready?

[00:46:13] Fonz: First question: Every superhero has a pain point or a weakness. For Superman, it’s kryptonite. So I want to ask you, Dagan, in the current state of education, what would you say is your current edu-kryptonite?

[00:46:35] Dagan: Well, I’ve brought it up a lot today, but it’s definitely inefficient systems. I have a physical reaction when I think about these inefficient systems. They create roadblocks and blockades to what we’re trying to do. In education, it’s so frustrating when we have these systems. Every teacher knows it — it’s the stuff we talk about in the faculty lounge. You just want to get something done, and then you hit a roadblock, like, "Why do I have to fill out this form again?"

[00:47:11] Dagan: That inefficiency is definitely my kryptonite.

[00:47:14] Fonz: That’s a great answer. I’m sure many people will be able to relate to that one for sure.

[00:47:28] Fonz: Second question: If you could have a billboard with anything on it, what would it be and why?

[00:47:30] Dagan: My billboard would be two words: Live Aloha. This concept of aloha is deeply tied to Hawaii. While tourists may use it casually, for the people of Hawaii, it’s a key part of how we live and operate. It’s about doing things for the sake of giving to others, for helping other people, and getting joy from doing good for others. Aloha can be as simple as putting your cart back at the supermarket or waving someone in traffic.

[00:48:13] Dagan: Living aloha is about thinking of others and considering how your actions impact them. I think if more people lived with aloha, the world would be a better place.

[00:48:39] Fonz: I love that. That’s wonderful. It’s about being present, being there for others, and being service-oriented. Fantastic.

[00:48:48] Fonz: Last question: If you could trade places with one person for a day, who would it be and why?

[00:48:58] Dagan: I mentioned earlier that I’m also a musician. If I could trade places with anyone, it would be John Frusciante, the guitarist from the Red Hot Chili Peppers. He’s been my favorite guitar player since I was a teenager. I’d love to experience just one day of playing with the band — especially seeing him rip a guitar solo, pouring all his emotions into the music. The energy from the audience is something I’d love to experience firsthand.

[00:49:45] Dagan: So, John Frusciante for sure.

[00:49:59] Fonz: That’s a great answer. Well, Dagan, it’s been wonderful speaking with you and hearing your story, your perspective on technology and education, and just geeking out with you. Thank you for the work you're doing, for sharing with us today, and for being such an amazing guest.

[00:50:18] Fonz: For all our audience members, make sure you connect with Dagan. All the links will be in the show notes. You can find this episode and all our other episodes on our website at My EdTech Life, where you can also check out over 305 other episodes. Thank you again for your support, and if you haven’t done so yet, make sure to follow us on all socials.

[00:51:11] Fonz: We’re trying to get to a thousand subscribers on YouTube, so could you be our thousandth subscriber? Please make sure you visit our website to subscribe. And as always, thank you for your support. We appreciate it from the bottom of our hearts.

[00:51:31] Fonz: This is probably the last show before the new year, so I just want to wish you all a wonderful 2025. Stay techie, my friends!