Episode 310: Caryn Sever

Episode 310: AI, Feedback, and Student Success with Caryn Sever

[00:00:02] Fonz: Hello everybody. And welcome to another great episode of My EdTech Life.

[00:00:33] Fonz: Thank you so much for joining us on this wonderful day and hopefully wherever it is that you're joining us from, you've had a fantastic day. And as always, thank you for making us part of your listening pleasure. As always, we do what we do for you so we can bring you some amazing conversations. We get to connect you with some amazing guests and just have a wonderful conversation.

[00:00:56] Fonz: So I'm just really excited about today's conversation as [00:01:00] I welcome to the show. Caryn sever, who is somebody that I have just met recently, but I'm really excited to talk to her about her role as an instructional designer, and obviously learning a little bit more about her experience and what she's seen In the higher ed space, as we talk about generative AI in these spaces.

[00:01:25] Fonz: So I'm really excited to welcome Caryn to the show. Caryn, how are you doing?

[00:01:29] Caryn: Hi, I'm great. How are you?

[00:01:31] Fonz: I am doing wonderful, Caryn. Thank you for, you know, being here and taking a little bit of time out of your busy schedule to just have a wonderful conversation with me. And as you know, I, we cover ed tech. The whole time.

[00:01:43] Fonz: Conversations, but, you know, for, for the last couple of months, it's just been really talking about generative AI as even though it's been since November of 2022, we're already January 2025, and it just seems like things are moving fast, [00:02:00] but slow at the same time, many times. And I'm just really excited and thrilled to have somebody here with your experience in higher ed to tell us.

[00:02:09] Fonz: How things are going in higher ed and obviously through your experience. So Caryn, before we dive in, can you give us a little brief introduction and what your context is in the higher ed space?

[00:02:21] Caryn: Absolutely. And, uh, thank you so much for having me. Thanks for those listening. Um, so you know, I had a different kind of journey. I was a grown up student, an adult student. I went to community college after a bunch of like starts and stops in college at the regular age. Um, and I did a lot of traveling.

[00:02:41] Caryn: And then when I finally figured out what I wanted to get out of my education when I started to sort of take agency over it. Um, I was, I was in my mid twenties, started community college, transferred straight to a university. And at that university, I was taking this [00:03:00] class. It was called Digital Whitman. I was a history major, and I just, I needed to get some English credits as well, and I was interested in the idea of Digital Whitman.

[00:03:10] Caryn: I'm not a huge fan of Walt Whitman, but the idea of taking somebody so, uh, so, so nature oriented and just sort of analog, and, and, and putting like that against, juxtaposing that against digital, I needed to know. I needed to know. So I took the class, and it was designed With an English department and an instructional designer and as soon as I took that first class after they both they both presented it They explained how the course was going to go the faculty member was going to be the subject matter expert We were going to discuss Whitman And then the instructional designer is going to have us create projects in an online space in the blog and try to translate that into some kind of digital footprint to sort of bring us into that, like, 21st century.

[00:03:56] Caryn: Um, his name is Jim Groom. He is [00:04:00] an instructional designer at Mary Washington and happens to be the founder and OG EduPunk um, so if you go into Wikipedia, You will find Jim Groom and his picture right there and he's got his knuckles up here and it says EduPunk um, and that's the picture there. This was the person who I, I went straight to and I was like, what do you do?

[00:04:22] Caryn: I got to know what you do because I need to do what you do. This is amazing.

[00:04:26] Caryn: And ever since then, every goal has been towards instructional design. So I got my, my bachelor's degree in American history. I started working at a college, um, in doing communications coordination and getting sort of embedded in higher ed, trying to really develop a lot of connections.

[00:04:47] Caryn: I wound up being able to take that communications coordination and build a website and communications for that whole department and then start to do some webinars where my director was hosting them. And then we did Twitter [00:05:00] chats, live Twitter chats. And this was in 2010, 2011. So I was a pretty early adopter of a lot of these like break fast, social media things.

[00:05:10] Caryn: And I was trying to bring it Transcribed Into the sort of analog higher ed space because this is exactly what Jim Groom did and this is this is What I feel is part of my mission And that went really well and I translated that into a job in Virtual presentation designing, which will definitely be called instructional design from now on, but they didn't really know what that was in the mid to tense, um, folks were just there.

[00:05:39] Caryn: Are you a graphic designer? What are you? Are you a teacher? What do you do? You know, so there's a lot of folks, I think, in our industry, like selling people on our job. What do you do explaining it? So a lot of different names. And so that was how I actually got in. I found this virtual presentation coach position at a contractor for [00:06:00] the VA.

[00:06:01] Caryn: And they had me traveling all over, working with presenters and subject matter experts to translate modules, content, hour long webinars, you know, building upon multi webinars that built upon each other, um, for live presentations and on demand. And that was really what helped me understand both how we're translating education in a digital space, but also the different kind of animals that online education, even in a synchronous and asynchronous, which we can talk about later, are so very different from face to face modalities.

[00:06:36] Caryn: And so that gave a real clear picture on how to structure education for really any topic, because that was training and now I work in higher ed again. So really any topic and how to structure that for this digital space. I took that job, I parlayed it into a position at the Library of Congress where I was the first instructional designer there for the Congressional Research Service, which was [00:07:00] incredibly cool, with the downside of having to sell people on my job, and the fantastic upside on those jobs.

[00:07:08] Caryn: Few who took it up, me up on it, their presentations, when they were presenting to Congress, when they were presenting, you know, in education spaces, when they were going into the BBC, their presentations were clearly elevated because we designed it to scaffold for that kind of modality, you know, and so I was working with, with, with folks who were speaking directly with Congress, speaking directly with analysts, speaking to.

[00:07:34] Caryn: Press, you know, so, so many different types of ways that we have to structure how we deliver information. Um, and this, and that helped really build up that skill set. Um, and then I moved back to higher ed because I love higher ed and politics, even at the library of Congress, it's still government and it gets, it's just intense and I don't like that.

[00:07:54] Caryn: So I love higher ed and I'm going to stay there forever. Um, because I truly feel that [00:08:00] these skills that I learned in all of these places. I want to bring it back to the students. I want to bring it back to, to me. You know, I was that student right there who met this instructional designer and, and now here I am and, and I love my job.

[00:08:15] Caryn: It's exciting. You know, it's different every day. I get to lead people. I get to Innovate. I get to use incredible pieces of technology, not just AI, but VR and AR. I get to go to like Microsoft garages and play with stuff like this is a really cool job and I want to bring that back to higher ed, but the main goal that I really wanted to take back to higher ed was building up the skill set all of these years of trying to figure out how to infuse it, how to deliver.

[00:08:46] Caryn: information for varied learners, for diverse learners, and especially for neurodiverse learners like me. And I, I landed really on how much I want to make sure that information is accessible to all in [00:09:00] many modalities, as many modalities as I can possibly find for them. And so that's why I went back to community college, because I truly believe that, um, that helping students succeed, um, Requires building this kind of scaffolding this technological infrastructure, this understanding on how to wield technology, how to bring that into the workforce and how to sort of integrate that back into society.

[00:09:27] Caryn: And so this is why I'm back in education because I truly believe the skill set that. The gym imparted on me. It deserves a place in in higher ed to help impart that on students and faculty are very, I mean, we work with lots of different folks, but I think that faculty are finding that it is elevating their teaching and their understanding of their students and the student and how they learn.

[00:09:52] Caryn: And so that's really Where I am now, um, and I'm, I'm, uh, I lead a group of people now, um, I lead a, uh, a department [00:10:00] and, um, and we really have, we've increased enrollment, but what we really have done was increase innovation and, and applied, um, the transform, um, Uh, the transparent design for learning technique, the tilt technique into all of our courses so that every student that takes an asynchronous course at our college understands the purpose, the directions, the grades, the criteria, and has all of that.

[00:10:27] Caryn: So at the very least, that structure, that scaffolding, this is a legacy I'm hoping to leave. Yeah.

[00:10:42] Fonz: you just shared right now and all the experiences that you've had, you know, and all it took, like you mentioned, is sometimes even as a student or, you know, as a student and now even as a teacher, sometimes you have that one student that just needed that One teacher to just show them one thing and just really take [00:11:00] off with it.

[00:11:00] Fonz: Like Jim did for you. And so that gets me really excited and really pumped up because it just seems like we're on the same wavelength here because I truly love everything you said, especially, you know, the scaffolding portion of it. I remember going to college or university in my, my very first couple of years.

[00:11:17] Fonz: And it was the same as it was in high school. It's like. You know, teacher led lecture, write notes on the board, write notes. And, and that's it. Like there really wasn't a lot of other technology involved at that time, you know, other than, Hey, when you need to go type up your paper, you go to the computer lab and you just type up your paper there.

[00:11:37] Fonz: And I mean, to age myself, when I was going and doing research there at the university, uh, many times I was still using the little microfiche. Machines, you know, and that many people may not even know what that microfiche machine is, but if you don't look it up, because then that'll kind of tell you a little bit about where I was at, but now you're absolutely right.

[00:11:57] Fonz: A lot has changed. And even with [00:12:00] myself going through a master's program that was completely, you know, asynchronous and then doing some doctoral studies also where it was just a mixed of, you know, asynchronous and then synchronous meetings and so on. But. The, the platforms that are involved, the way that the information is given, the way that, you know, like you said, finding those resources, it really matters and can make a difference in somebody's experience.

[00:12:23] Fonz: And that's what it's all about. But I just love everything that you said. And, and I'm just going to say that and throw it out there. I was like, I think like even K 12 needs instructional designers, you know, to be able to understand this and really bring this. Um, you know, to the students and understanding the scaffolding, understanding the universal design for learning and making sure that you have tools for learning for everybody.

[00:12:47] Fonz: So everybody has access to just different modalities of learning the same concept and the scaffolding part of it. So I'm just juiced up and really excited about this conversation now. And I waiting to [00:13:00] hear too, about your experience now that we're going to kind of. Push back a little bit here in time.

[00:13:05] Fonz: And I always love to also ask my guests, you know, November 22 of 2022, we all know what happened and what was released at that given time. And now we've got so much, you know, so many platforms, new platforms. Of course, one of the big hot topic right now is DeepSeek. Right now. And, you know, how it's performing or outperforming, you know, um, chat GPT and things of that sort.

[00:13:30] Fonz: And of course, um, showing us a little bit about how, yes, we may be, or, or open AI may have, you know, the, the resources, but the technicality of it and the background, I mean, we're like revving up open AI and deep seeks, just running like a Honda Accord. And so it's like, it's, it's, it's. There's so many things out there right now and a lot of innovations taking place.

[00:13:55] Fonz: But I want to ask you what your initial thoughts were on November, [00:14:00] 2022, when we first got a glimpse at, you know, publicly of open AI and access to open AI, what was the first thing that came to your mind?

[00:14:11] Caryn: the first thing that came to my mind was, uh, I'm going to the website and I'm going to put my name on the waiting list because I want to play. Um, I'm, I am an early adopter, um, but I'm not an early integrator of technology, if that makes sense. So, yeah. So, yeah. Immediately, when I found out that the generative AI had finally broken, because I, you know, there was, there had been sort of like rumbles for, for years that this was coming, and then all of our focus had been on VR, you know, and, and AR, and then all of a sudden it's like, look what's over here again, and, and as soon as I got access to it, I started using it as a thought partner, um, and I, you know, I use it and I have been using it since as [00:15:00] um, not just a thought partner, but let's call I call it sky and it's my graduate assistant basically Um, and so I use personally and have since day one almost um sky as my personal assistant but then the other thing I did because I am you know, ever, ever a paranoid, but like vast reader of lots of science fiction.

[00:15:23] Caryn: I also have sort of a running chatbot question that I constantly ask, uh, on the loop, what is your name? So I have on, and on chat dpt. So I have a little experiment and I started running experiments to see how long or what chat GPT would say, you know, is it self aware and what does it pass the Turing test, all of those types of things.

[00:15:47] Caryn: And so usually it's that it's named the star or sky. Um, and, and that was like my initial, my initial thoughts was like, how am I going to push this to see what I can do with it as me, and once [00:16:00] I feel comfortable. Wielding it. And also not just wielding it, but I needed to know the lexicon. I needed to understand how do you, how do you really generate a prompt?

[00:16:09] Caryn: Not what someone's telling me the right things are, but how do I generate a prompt? Which is very different from maybe how you generate a prompt or how a faculty member generates a prompt. And so a lot of my initial thoughts were What is the, what is the formula, what's the recipe to get the prompts to where you want them to be?

[00:16:34] Caryn: And so that was really my early, early research was starting to develop like prompt libraries and testing them constantly on my chatbot to see what I could refine. And then I, I, I use that later. We can talk about that later. That's it. It was the prompts and really understanding how to break down language very specifically, and also later on after [00:17:00] going to a few, you know, conferences and chatting with some colleagues, creating personas and creating personas for my, for my chatbots, and then prompting those personas and seeing what that could be.

[00:17:11] Fonz: That is some really cool stuff. You know, at the time I was just like, Hey, let's go ahead and just type anything in and see what it gives me. But, you know, at the same time, like you said, I really, what that one statement at the very beginning, that one sentence is, yes, I agree with you. And I'm very much like you, or I am an early adopter, but I'm not always an early integrator because I want to I want to see what I can break, or if it breaks, and I don't want to put something in the hands of teachers or students that is not where it should be at all whatsoever, because obviously safety data.

[00:17:50] Fonz: All of that good stuff. And then of course, you know, just making sure that the, all the outputs would be something that would be safe and, you know, just protecting your children because you don't [00:18:00] want something like that to happen. And so now, you know, like you mentioned, that was your initial experience.

[00:18:06] Fonz: And now let's jump forward, you know, for three years. So now we're, we went from back to. Back into the future. Well, back into the past. And now we're coming back to present now with all the changes that have occurred and obviously all the updates and so on, I want to ask you what your, what has changed from 2022 to now to 2025 for you, as far as generative AI.

[00:18:33] Caryn: Yeah, I mean, that's it. That's a great question. Um, I. So for me, I, I, I have found that I am able to wield it and integrate it far more than I, than I had certainly. In the past. Um, I, uh, I notice many of the tools that I review that I want to integrate or that our system is an out. No. That, that colleges are [00:19:00] integrating.

[00:19:01] Caryn: Um, I, are, are infused with AI in some, in some kind of way. And so, you know, kind of understanding the other large language processing models as well, I think is a really important piece to this, especially when it comes to instructional design, especially when it comes to implementing, into EdTech and LMSs, learning management systems.

[00:19:26] Caryn: And so I think what I'm learning is a couple of things. How do, how do I use generative AI? How do I wield it for good in courses? And we can talk about that in a second. But also, how are these products using it? How are they creating knowledge spaces? Is this real AI? Where are the nodes? Where are we pulling from?

[00:19:47] Caryn: You know, what base are we building? What information is this providing to the students? So the things that I can't control I keep a very close eye on and even the products that [00:20:00] Colleges that I've worked at don't use I you know I keep a close eye on all of the products because I think that folks are really Infusing AI.

[00:20:08] Caryn: And since I'm saying this now, I just want to be able to say this out loud sometime, which would be what I say to a lot of educators when I go to a lot of these conferences is as folks are building these tools. Integrating and leveraging AI In some way and large language models and things like that that educators, especially a higher ed and K through 12 need to raise their hand and be subject matter experts and testers, and they need to get in front of these folks who are building these tools.

[00:20:39] Caryn: I'm saying that to your community now to my soapbox. Please get in front of the folks building these tools because what it's Developers don't know. They don't know. And if we're not here to help guide folks as the subject matter experts, then that information will never get to these folks [00:21:00] hands while they're coding and creating.

[00:21:02] Caryn: And so, we really need to be in front of folks. So that's one thing that I have really learned over the last three years is to take a real critical look how AI is being used in products On the other side, and this is like the super exciting positive side that I'm so excited to talk about, uh, both are positive, but this is, this has like incredible results and is super fun for me.

[00:21:29] Caryn: Um, I have been working with faculty to integrate AI, generative AI activities into courses, um, so that we can start scaffolding, start building up those skills for our students. And a lot of it is coming From the needs of, of employers, honestly, you know, we are, we're hearing things all educators, especially instructional designers are hearing things like, you know, I have a lot of recent grads who aren't able to [00:22:00] take feedback or, or having trouble, you know, processing information in the way that we're providing it to them.

[00:22:06] Caryn: Some folks are, we've heard feedback that, that's That entry level, um, workers were actually like ghosting, ghosting their employers because they received some critical feedback and they didn't know how to sort of accept, integrate, reflect, and then reflect it back. Right. And it's that resilience piece.

[00:22:25] Caryn: How do you build resilience? It's such a, like a squishy, you know, something squishy skill, right? It's like a soft skill. And I hate the word soft skills because those are just human skills. But if you don't have. Any kind of infrastructure to build that kind of human skill. You're not going to bring that to the workforce either.

[00:22:45] Caryn: How can you expect a student to just know how to take feedback, you know, if you're not providing. So, one of the really cool projects that, um, that I started working on, and this really is just interdisciplinary. [00:23:00] It's, it's really a product for anybody. It's not product. It's just an activity for anyone, which is using generative AI.

[00:23:06] Caryn: I chose ChatGPT. After a series of very specific prompts, um, to, to have students. Put a product of work in this case. I use I was using like coding a very um simple calculator I don't know how much software development experience you have but with coding it's like you could do a simple calculator It's not always going to like you're not going to have the same two student or student do the exact same code Over and over again, there's always going to be some little variation, you know, because it's design, it's preference.

[00:23:39] Caryn: And so, we have the students create the code for their simple calculator and based on a lot of prompt engineering that took a long time to get there. Um, we have the students use specific prompts that say please evaluate this code for elegance, usability, you know, what do you predict, how do you predict people would use it, are there [00:24:00] errors, but it will not debug the code, it will not fix the code for you, you know, it's not going to give you a brand new code, and that's what you're going to use, so it takes a lot of prompt engineering to create the prompt that allows students to get the feedback, so The students then use that prompt provided by the faculty, they put their code in, they put the prompt in, they get the feedback, they read it, they reflect, they update, and then they post on a discussion board to their peers the initial, initial code.

[00:24:35] Caryn: The feedback from their generative AI, you know, of choice, their reflection, the new updated code based on the feedback, and then their experience, well, their reflection, their experience of how they, you know, how they got there. They get the feedback from their peers. They take that whole package. They update the code if they need to, they reflect, and they hand that in a one to [00:25:00] one instructor assignment, and then they get feedback again, and then they close the full assignment by a one to one instructor reflective journal that some, some faculty might want to make like extra credit.

[00:25:11] Caryn: So now we have, A full feedback loop where it's sort of like, I guess I use the word titrating up, you know, where we're, we're kind of building up this skill. We're building the muscle. So, what, what we're really doing is like, I'm trying to almost like PT, trying to build the muscles. In a safe environment without that feels completely without judgment because it's a machine. So that's sort of like the first experience and you get your feedback and then it's peers and peer feedback is important for a lot of reasons but feel somewhat safer sometimes than instructor feedback.

[00:25:46] Caryn: But also, we're not just building up this muscle, we're demonstrating what would actually take place in the workplace, because in the real world. You would create your assignment, or [00:26:00] you'd be given your project. You would take your draft now in this world, if your employer allows you to, you would put that through ChatGPT with whatever series of prompts, or your generative AI, or whatever kind of feedback review you can do that is acceptable, usually from some digital format, Grammarly, that's a good one too.

[00:26:21] Caryn: And then you'll take that, you'll redo your draft, and then you'll provide that to your middle manager, or your direct supervisor. All Or a group of a project peers who you're all working together on, and then you all will submit that to the boss or whomever the deliverable is for. And so what we're trying to do, you know, as instructional designers, and certainly what I'm trying to do here is not just build the muscle, not just build the scaffolding, but everything has this like extra purpose.

[00:26:50] Caryn: You get your feedback, you build up the muscle, you know how to take feedback, you stay in the workforce. But not only that. What happened was the feedback that the [00:27:00] peers were giving was elevated with every time we implemented this project again, and it's because they start to build up a lexicon to of how to give feedback.

[00:27:10] Caryn: So now you're building leaders. And these are the types of activities that I really think generative AI. Is, is a game changer, a game changer for this kind of stuff. This works everywhere. I had a friend who he's a, he's a, um, a screenwriter. I gave him this activity because he was, he felt really uncomfortable getting notes from, from a new producer.

[00:27:36] Caryn: And I was like, Hey, can you create, you know, like a closed chat bot, just make a folder, you know, make a closed chat bot and ask it, give it some prompts and ask it to give you some feedback on maybe some, some passages. And then that'll help you build up that resilience. And that's the thing. This could work with anything.

[00:27:53] Caryn: This could work with training. This could work in the workforce, but it is working with students. And that's the real [00:28:00] positive side. I don't want to go negative until you asked me that question, because I'm really excited about this particular project and it works well at IT, but it's also works in like history works in English works pretty much for everything.

[00:28:10] Fonz: Yeah. You know, this is fantastic because this is the first time, obviously, you know, in, in, in an interview that somebody goes in depth like this because of the experience that you have and not just talking about a tool and what it can do and how quickly you can do it for a teacher or how quickly you can do it for a student, but you actually just went very deep and explained how, what you know, in, in leveraging the power of, uh, generative AI building, like you call it that squishy skill, you know, which is that resilience and being able to take that feedback.

[00:28:45] Fonz: And I find that just outstanding. Like this is the first time I never thought about that. I'm sure that maybe many others haven't thought about that, but after today, and I know after they listened to this episode, Oh, they can go in so many directions because this is [00:29:00] fantastic. I see. In your explanation, just that overall, uh, that overarching goal, which is like you mentioned your passion to help students and bringing it back to the students and building them up to be able to get ready for that workforce.

[00:29:18] Fonz: And they're collaborating, they're creating, they're getting that feedback. They're reiterating. They're submitting, they're getting the feedback either from, of course, initially from the chat bot, then from their peers, and then ultimately from their professor. So there's so many layers there of building the student resiliency up and being able to understand not only how to provide positive feedback, you know, as you're working with the team or with your peer, but also Being able to take that feedback as well and saying, okay, let me take a step back and let me go ahead and fix this based on these suggestions.

[00:29:58] Fonz: I think that is [00:30:00] fantastic, you know, because again, like I mentioned to you, all we talk about is how quick they can do this for you, how quickly it's going to give the teacher back time, how quickly the students can do this and, uh, you know, going back to, oh, well, the students are just going to put it in JAD GPT and cheat and so on.

[00:30:15] Fonz: But this right here, Has so many layers to it that it's really chat. GPT is not even at the forefront or the main protagonist here. It's really the student in their growth of resilience. And this is fantastic, Caryn. This is amazing. I absolutely love this. This is wonderful. So now let me. Let me ask you, uh, before we get to maybe that, that other question, I won't, we won't go into the negative side yet, but I want to ask you though, just initially, you know, as you're introducing this new technology, you're working with the subject matter experts, which in this case would be those professors, your colleagues, your peers, and so on.

[00:30:57] Fonz: What were initially some of [00:31:00] your, the barriers that you had to overcome as you're introducing this new technology? To, like I mentioned, your professors or even people that are within your department. Silence.

[00:31:26] Caryn: at the conferences and conversations I've been having with, with faculty, just honestly, across the board, I think some of the concerns are, are, are that are we offloading thinking?

[00:31:39] Caryn: Um, and I think this is a concern that does get brought up to me in, in so many different venues. Honestly, it's like, what does it mean? When we offload thought, and we create sort of these easier pathways to answer sort of questions like that. And we create easier pathways to what could be perceived as cheating. Um, and [00:32:00] I, and I do think that by and large, and we, you know, we could, Could read Insight Higher Ed every single day, and there is some article about folks who are really concerned about generative AI and academic integrity specifically. And, and that's really one of the reasons why I, I keep trying to sort of flip this narrative in a different way.

[00:32:19] Caryn: Because I truly believe that if we create digital literacy, that, and we create activities like the one I described, where we allow students to wield generative AI or, or technology, you know, like, Whatever's to come. You know, we build up the this that scaffolding and sort of the frameworks and the understanding and the grace where students can wield this this technology, then we may wind up combating some of that academic integrity and these cheating problems because we're saying, listen, you can't use it here.

[00:32:53] Caryn: Like, it's definitely not okay to use it here. And I will be totally, totally fair. I have [00:33:00] absolutely seen it. Swaths of text taken and then dropped into a discussion board. I've even seen texts that say, maybe you could use, you know, with like the prompt up top that explains like what the prompt is and then like, you know, and then the little thing at the bottom of chat, GPT, that sort of gives you that summary of what it's accomplished for you.

[00:33:19] Caryn: And I've seen that too. And I would say that if we're not being specific with our students. For one about how they are allowed or not allowed or the rules that we have around this technology, then they're not going to know, right? I mean, it's, it's, there's no, people don't know what you don't know and common sense isn't, isn't common and, and we work in colleges of diverse populations of people from all over the world.

[00:33:50] Caryn: And so there are varying understandings of cultures that have different ideas of what like. Cheating looks like, you know, and so [00:34:00] we really need to be specific about the criteria in each every one of our courses, what we want as, as educators. And that's, that's the dominion, I think that, that we hold. And I think the most faculty at this point are in that space where they're having to define it individually, really looking for larger bodies of leadership and like accreditors, I think more so, to define How to use it as a blanket.

[00:34:31] Caryn: And I think this is sort of that crisis that we're looking at is like, we want, you know, not we, but folks want somebody to say, you know, cheating is a problem and generative AI is the cause. You know, but we need, and we need some sort of policy to put on top of this, but we're chasing smoke because the technology is just constantly getting better.

[00:34:51] Caryn: And so I truly believe that the only way to do it is to create digital literacy activities where our students get to use it, get to wield it. [00:35:00] Training for all faculty and staff and folks all over the place in all colleges to wield it and use it. Um, and the training is key, and, and I do think that, you know, any institution that someone is at, I think that part of that training, too, requires kind of an in house component, because institutions are so, are individual, they have their own flavor, they have their own way that they do stuff, especially in online course development, and, and so part of the problem, I think, that we are finding in this space is this one shop training.

[00:35:37] Caryn: You know, and like this one size fits all blanket AI training that's like, this is what AI is, this is what it can do, and it can also do this, and this is how it does it for you, and this is why we do it. But it's like, how do I use it for me? And those are the kinds of, I think, trainings where people like me, people like you, come in and they and have these more tailored trainings where it [00:36:00] seems so much less scary to adopt.

[00:36:03] Caryn: Because there's this other real, thing happening in the world that I think that higher Ed doesn't really want to name, and I don't mind naming it because it's real, you know, we This is a technological revolution that we are a part of right now. We are living through it. And that means that almost every single profession, whether you got an English degree, or, you know, any, or, or an engineering degree, or an art degree, Requires some form of I.

[00:36:34] Caryn: T. Understanding and basic usage of like infusing that into your course in some way. And so I think part of what we do need to work on as sort of educators in higher ed is blending that interdisciplinary work together. Because I think what we're, what we could do. A better job at just across the [00:37:00] board as educators is going back to our I.

[00:37:02] Caryn: T. Partners in education, who I think that in general I. T. Has been looked at like this group over here that educates folks, but like they're so separate, you know, and then there's all these other educators over here. But this is this is the world we live in, where Almost all education takes place through an LMS somehow, even when it's face to face.

[00:37:22] Caryn: And it requires technology and wielding of technology and scaffolding. And so, I, I think what I, I would love to see, and I think the, and this is how I kind of reframe these conversations, is for faculty who have, um, you know, a little bit of fear adopting this due to a lot of academic integrity issues, is to work and see how they can.

[00:37:45] Caryn: Wield it in their course. And if they're concerned about adopting, because it is so technologically advanced and because there's no train, not enough training available to them, or they don't know how to wield it. It's time to work together as departments, the [00:38:00] folks who know how to wield this type of technology, working together and creating courses, just like Jim groomed it with my English course and creating a digital Whitman so that students can not only.

[00:38:11] Caryn: Get that subject matter expertise that they need. They need that foundational knowledge as human beings in the world. They also need to know how to do their jobs. When they wield that later, they use both to help design and make good decisions and then implemented the actual action of doing the job in the workplace.

[00:38:32] Caryn: And all of these things are really important, which is why it's so important. All classes. Have some kind of digital literacy and some kind of understanding in this new space, regardless of discipline, because this is the world we live in now. And I think honestly, as educators, it is our responsibility to, to really remind students to, to take a closer look, um, and, and to understand how to wield it.

[00:38:58] Caryn: And also to know the [00:39:00] limitations and know what's. Not okay. And then the final thing I'll say on this one, because this is a big thing that I have been talking about,

[00:39:08] Fonz: so we're

[00:39:11] Caryn: play out, I think, in, in a lot of classrooms and actually post pandemic, both face to face, um, synchronous and asynchronous is

[00:39:20] Fonz: uh,

[00:39:21] Caryn: human.

[00:39:23] Caryn: interactions that we have. And so, and this is maybe just a me thing, but I have some colleagues too, um, at, um, Arizona University, like, uh, like Dr. Angela Gunder talks about this all the time. Um, also a great person if you've ever met her, but this whole idea of maintaining our humanity in this post human world and, and working with students to not only design Prompts, but to design them with decorum to work on you, continuing to have sort of like, you know, language that is inclusive and polite, because my fear just [00:40:00] as an educator and a human in this world is, you know, when we're, you know, When we're typing in orders for a machine to do our bidding at such incredible rates with an incredible mind that we couldn't even fathom, honestly, what does that mean for me as I'm barking orders to a machine to do my job?

[00:40:20] Caryn: Am I going to lose my humanity? And so I think part of that is me trying to infuse this idea that students still need to treat this entity, In, in a polite way, that this is still an entity that is supporting you, it is a thought partner, it is not a person, but it still requires respect, and language requires respect.

[00:40:41] Caryn: And so that's one of the things that I also think is really part of digital literacy, is understanding that we have to maintain our humanity as we continuously bark orders at new machines to do our jobs.

[00:40:55] Fonz: is amazing. Like definitely, you definitely hit on a lot of great things here as far [00:41:00] as, you know, working with your. Department's working with professors and, you know, I, on LinkedIn too, I'm connected to a lot of other instructional designers, but also a lot of professors in higher ed. And like you mentioned, some of them that do know how to use this or have really been those early adopters.

[00:41:18] Fonz: Early adopters and are able to share. Many of them are sharing and they're bringing this to light, not only within their campuses, but to other professors and colleagues and so on, and being able to share this. And, uh, one thing that I do find though, is that there is also that level of professor that's like all in, you need to use it.

[00:41:38] Fonz: You must use it. And if you haven't done so yet, you're falling behind. But then there's the other side that is kind of like a me, you know, sort of in the sense of like, well, let me just wait and see, because you never know what's going to happen, but it doesn't mean that I'm not, you know, going to try it out.

[00:41:55] Fonz: Or it doesn't mean that. That I'm not going to get there, but it just means that, you know, I'm deciding to [00:42:00] just take it slow a little bit, start process everything in and, you know, not really gonna get into that whole fear of missing out. So sometimes, you know, there, there's a sense of urgency, like you need to get into this.

[00:42:13] Fonz: Yes. You know, it's been what, 2022 now we're at 2025. And yes, a lot has changed. There are going to be a lot more people that are slowly seeing, because like you mentioned, there is a lot of software that has some form of algorithm, automation, AI. You know, within it. So that knowledge will come, but it's great that there are many people such as yourself, such as I mentioned, uh, Jason Golia, I'll mention, uh, Dr.

[00:42:42] Fonz: Luke Hobson and many others that are out there on this space that are a sharing. These wonderful things. And I think that's something like you mentioned it. It's scary, but exciting all at once. And I think for me, I kind of liken it to when I first got into [00:43:00] this role as a, you know, uh, Learning coordinator here, but the title was different at the time, but now it's learning coordinator.

[00:43:07] Fonz: Uh, I got tasked with creating a new template for new lesson plans and so on. And now we were moving into a Google workspace. And so nobody was using Google workspace at the time. And now I'm like, okay, I'm the guy like now we're going to integrate it. We're going to do this. We're going to start using Google workspace.

[00:43:24] Fonz: I changed the lesson plan template and boy, did I like the whole district was so upset. I mean, they were mad because now. They couldn't just copy and paste, you know, they had, cause that other platform was going to get shut down. So they couldn't just grab those old lesson plans and just turn them in. So they had to start from scratch.

[00:43:42] Fonz: Although then they found out and I told them, Hey, don't worry, just save these. The dates are going to change and chances are, you're going to have the same book. So don't panic. Don't worry. So got over that fear, but there was this one particular teacher. Who said, no, I'm not going to do it. And there's nothing that you can do to teach me how to [00:44:00] do this because I refused.

[00:44:02] Fonz: And later on, she would just call me and I would just kindly go over, we would have one on one sessions, walked her through the stuff, you know, showed her. And now like after COVID and everything, I like, she was like, I'm going to retire. Now she's like, you know what, this kind of extended, you know, my teaching career a little bit more because now I've learned how to automate things.

[00:44:21] Fonz: I feel more comfortable with tech. And to me, I just kind of liken it to that, that right now there are those that are going to resist, but after a while, you know, you just. You got to just show them like, Hey, look, here's how you can try it out personally. Now imagine how this can translate into your classroom.

[00:44:40] Fonz: So on and so forth. And, you know, it's, it's exciting times, but it's scary for many because of the speed of it. But, you know, I'm just thankful for everyone. Enthusiastic instructional designers, humans, you know, just people, great people like you that are out there just sharing, you know, your knowledge and just sharing [00:45:00] your passion about generative AI with everybody.

[00:45:03] Fonz: So Caryn, thank you so much for joining me this, uh, this today, this evening. And just sharing your passion. And I definitely learned a lot. And I know that our audience members definitely learned a lot. And so what we're going to do is we're going to make sure we definitely have all your information on, uh, of course our podcast page and people will be able to connect with you on all of your socials.

[00:45:26] Fonz: But before we wrap up, we always, uh, wrap up. With the last three questions, hopefully you got a glimpse of them, um, you know, earlier today. And, uh, so let's go ahead and get started. So the first question I love to ask is, let me set it up here. As we know, every superhero has a pain point or a weakness. And we know that for Superman kryptonite was his weakness.

[00:45:51] Fonz: So I want to ask you. Uh, Caryn in the current state of higher education, what would you say is your [00:46:00] current EduKryptonite?

[00:46:04] Caryn: EduKryptonite. I would call it barriers to access. Um, I am always and forever going to be an OER, Open Educational Resource Advocate. Um, and, and I have found, you know, as the years go by, there are more and more barriers to implement OERs than one would expect. And so my, my kryptonite where I get, you know, my mama bear part where I, where I start to really, you know, get, get, get my facts out and build my receipts and send all of that is when folks are telling me that, um, that there is a paid resource that might be better and, and loving to work with, um, with faculty and librarians and my wonderful colleagues to find OERs that are better than even that resource that they're looking at.

[00:46:57] Caryn: So that could be. That would be [00:47:00] it. Barriers to access. Um,

[00:47:05] Fonz: if you could have a billboard with anything on it, what would it be? And why?

[00:47:13] Caryn: have you heard of metacognition? Um, I, I honestly think in this day and age, metacognition and the understanding of how we understand as human beings, I really feel if we all sat with that and reflected upon ourselves, we would find agency and accountability And these are things that I truly, truly, truly want to see all people have.

[00:47:44] Fonz: Great answer. Love it. And the last question, Caryn is if you could trade places with one person for a day, who would that person be? And why?

[00:47:56] Caryn: I kept thinking of Educator, though he is kind of an educator, but the same person [00:48:00] kept popping, popping in my mind. I, I don't know if you know them, but I'm a very big fan of the band Go Bordello, and the lead singer's name is Eugene Hutz. And he is an incredible writer, an incredible singer songwriter, also an educator.

[00:48:16] Caryn: He's also from Ukraine. He travels the world educating people on freedom and love and understanding. Um, and he just came out with this incredible movie, um, that, that everyone should check out about his immigrant experience and just the way that he educates people. I just saw him in DC and like, uh, and he was, um, It was, it was like an interview style thing, which is really cool because he's always just playing in the band.

[00:48:43] Caryn: And he's just, he's brilliant. He was talking about the Stoics and then the Optimists and how that reflects in his songwriting and the book that he's writing. And he's just a brilliant man. Um, so I would love to be him and experience his world through his eyes for one day. And if he's [00:49:00] listening, which he probably isn't, I am a huge fan girl.

[00:49:03] Fonz: is awesome. Well, we'll see if we can make it happen. We'll definitely maybe cut this clip, send it out to him. And that'd be great. You know, just to see if we can make that connection. That'd be wonderful. But Caryn, thank so much. I really appreciate it. And again, thank you so much just for being who you are and what you're doing for the students and really just, you know, knowing and seeing and hearing, you know, through this conversation that really everything that you're doing, you're doing it with that in mind, it's all for the student and I'm all for that.

[00:49:34] Fonz: And I love that. And I'm thankful for Jim also, who, uh, inspired you to do this. to be in this role that you're currently doing. And with all that experience that you have, you know, it's just amazing. And thank you just for enlightening us today. I really appreciate it. And for all our audience members, thank you also for, you know, as always, for all of your support.

[00:49:57] Fonz: Thank you for joining us on this wonderful episode, but [00:50:00] please don't forget to jump over to our website at I add tech dot life, where you can check out this amazing episode and the other 309 episodes that we have, where I guarantee you, you will find some knowledge nuggets that you can sprinkle onto what you are already doing great.

[00:50:16] Fonz: And if you haven't done so yet, guys, we're about, we need about 20. Eight more followers on our YouTube channel so we can get to a thousand. And that is our goal to get to 1000 subscribers on YouTube. So please head on over, give us a thumbs up, follow us, subscribe, and share the channel with all of your friends so they can check out these amazing episodes.

[00:50:37] Fonz: And as always, you can find us on all socials at my ed tech life, but as always, my friends from the bottom of my heart until next time, don't forget, stay techie. 

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